gatrtalz 6

Gator Tales - Page 6 - 501 - 600

Julian Baucom begins Martin-Baker approach. Photos by Rodney Rogers in another RF8, using Bay 2 camera.

THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

501.
Toast to Comrades in Arms

-- Capt Jerry Coffee, USN (ret) a Vietnam POW

One night during a bombing raid on Hanoi, I peeked out of my cell and watched a flight of four F-105s during their bombing run. As they pulled up, it was obvious that lead was badly hit. Trailing smoke, he broke from the formation and I watched the damaged bird until it disappeared from sight. I presumed the worst.

As I lay there in my cell reflecting on the image, I composed a toast to the unfortunate pilot and all the others who had gone before him.

On New Year's Eve 1968, Captain Tom Storey and I were in the Stardust section of Hoa Lo (wa-low) Prison. I whispered the toast under the door to Tom. Tom was enthralled, and despite the risk of terrible punishment, insisted that I repeat it several more times until he had it committed to memory. He then promised me that when the time came, and they were again free men, he would give the toast at the first dining-in he attended. [For you civilians, a
dining-in is a dreary formal affair with drinks, dinner, and forced joviality and comradeship where officers get to dress up like the head waiters in "The Merry Widow" -- that's the American version; I've heard that the Brits, who created the damn things, have a rollicking good time.

Tom's first assignment following release in 1973 was to the U.S. Air Force Academy. During that same year the Academy hosted the Annual Conference of General Officers and Those Associated Dining In. ... The jovial clinking of glasses accompanied all the traditional speeches and toasts.

Then it was Tom's turn. Remembering his promise so many years earlier, he proposed Jerry's "One More Roll." When he was finished there was total silence.

We toast our hearty comrades
Who have fallen from the skies,
And were gently caught by God's own hands
To be with him on high,
To dwell among the soaring clouds
They have known so well before,
From victory roll to tail chase
At heavens very door.

And as we fly among them there,
We're sure to hear their plea:
Take care, my friend,
Watch your six,
And do one more roll for me.

[A toast to all our comrades -- POWs, missing in action, living or dead, whatever their duty., whatever their war, whatever their uniform. Bless them all.]

502.
Must relate a story pertaining to Jack Finley.
When I was Skipper of VF 13 and Jack was my Maint. Officer we took a cross country in two F8s to Washington( Andrews AFB ) from Cecil Field, FL. We spent the night there and flew back the next day.. In those days you could file and fly direct without going through the ATC bit as long as you stayed below 18,000 ft. So we filed direct to Cecil and climbed to 18,000. About half way home, An Air Force C130 coming from the opposite direction flew right betweenour section.

Greg Gregory

503.
I sure agree with Bob Heisner's description of Jack Snyder, he was great. In the early 60's Jack was CO of 191 and I was maintenance officer of VF-154. 154 was getting ready to deploy on Coral Sea with new F8D's. The 154 maintenance troops had been putting the maintenance gear in cruise boxes etc. and came to me and said "we know 191 has a spare nose gear strut and we know where it is. Think we should borrow it and take it straight to the ship? I told them to go ahead but not to get caught. There were NO struts in the supply system. They managed to pull it off and I was later told that Jack was in hover state 12 when he found out that the strut was missing. About five years later I was headed to 124 back for my third time through the Rag, walked into the club at Miramar and ran into Jack at the bar. He said "you SOB I know you took my strut and I just wanted to let you know that I just sat on the Command screen board that put you on the list for Command. Anybody that had balls enough to steal my strut deserves a command." I'm not sure that is true but it gives everyone an idea of what a great guy Jack was.

Tom Tucker

504.

Since I haven't seen anyone else chime in on the "stick maneuver" PJ
mentioned, I'll provide my recollection of what he is probably referring to in his note. After my first cruise in VF-194, we trans-Pac'd eight F-8Es to begin the E to J conversion. Four from 194 and four from 191. Got left
behind in Guam since I had experienced a generator failure close to the
point of no return on the first leg from Cubi to Guam. Once that was fixed, I ended up flying a total of nine hours in one day to get to Barber's Point in time to catch up to the rest of the gaggle, but all of that is another story. The fact is that 194 and 191 were the first two squadrons to deploy in F-8Js. (Not unless April came before February in 1969, which I don't recall that it did!)

The net effect of the BLC over the trailing edge and the double leading edge droop was a greatly reduced landing speed; somewhere around 15 knots below that of the F-8E depending on weight and temperature conditions, etc.
However, the price paid for a slower landing speed was a loss of available power of between 900 to 1,000 pounds. During workups off SOCAL, in
relatively cool climate conditions, the impact of this loss of thrust on the wave off capability was not immediately recognized. Once we headed west and began operating off of Hawaii the fun began. As one of the squadron LSOs, I had obviously been involved in the field workups, which also did really show this very negative effect of the BLC mod. The clearest example of how
significant this loss of thrust was on the wave off performance happened on a blue sky, calm seas day. The XO, Robbie Roberts, was in the groove and he got a fouled deck wave off pretty far out. The full power, establish and hold the optimum landing attitude had little affect on his rate of descent and he ended up taxiing to the one-wire! (Devil Houston's favorite target wire! (Sorry Jerry, couldn't help myself.) Robbie was on speed with a
centered meatball when the wave off was initiated about 15 seconds out.

Much discussion ensued within the squadrons, the air wing and on up the line as you can imagine. I don't know how the heavies communicated the problem we were seeing, but at some point the magic stick maneuver was provided to us. I believe PJ stated an LTV pilot developed it, but I know PAX River was also involved.

The maneuver was called the "Pulse Rotation Technique" or PRT. The first response to a wave would now be to pull the stick back rapidly while going to full power, or pulse it, which would aid in reducing the rate of descent since the available power would no longer help to accomplish that. Of course, the flat power curve of the F8 never gave us much aid in that arena before, and even less in the Js. After the pulse rotation the next step was to re-establish the optimum landing attitude. This worked fairly well but was a band aid to keep the ops going until a fix could be made to add some thrust back into the bird. That was done over the following months, and it was named the "War Emergency Power" mod, or WEP. Essentially, we could dump a slug of fuel into the engine by shoving the throttle past the full power detent and get a short burst of thrust if needed for wave off situations, without attempting to use AB and run the risk of losing even more power if the burner didn't light and the nozzles stayed open. WEP could be selected with the wing down, but it was not supposed to be used in that configuration since the cooling air to the engine was insufficient to prevent damage to the burner cans. In fact, it was easy to inadvertently put the throttle past the detent, and all F-8J squadrons began seeing premature and severe burner can damage (cracks) after the WEP mod was installed.
So, the F-8J produced some interesting operational situations if nothing else. The slogan "Our need is thrust, in God we trust" was one result, along with a patch to make that statement. That may have come from the 162 crowd so you probably remember those details.
One sea story PJ will remember involves Rick "Cobra" Parker, who was the Ops Officer in 194 that first F-8J cruise. PJ had come aboard to talk to the squadrons about the company efforts to solve the problem. Cobra basically reamed PJ out for LTV's lack of engineering test and development before sending the F-8J to the fleet. I believe he even commented that he thought it was criminal to give us such a POS aircraft. The usual colorful Cobra language was mixed in with the other venom. PJ can fill in the blanks.

Hope this stirs some memories.

Scotty Bates

505.
Several people chimed in on roll rate, all with basically the same answer,the 720 degrees a second Fireball cited, which is the number that I rememberas well, but nothing on turn rate. In the interim, I have been tthrough the NATOPS Manual at length, and cannot find anything specific on either, which is a bit surprising. I did find a limitation, which was as I had remembered, that you were not to exceed 360 degrees of roll. I am sure that none of us ever ignored that limitation, certainly not me!
Tom Weinel

I remember that the roll rate was 720 degrees per second, hence the
frequently observed helmut paint on the canopy after tactical flights. Turn rates would vary with speed and G forces. I don't remember what the minimum speed you needed to pull 6.5 g's but that would give you max turn rate at 90 degrees of bank, but that is kind of a useless figure since we used the
vertical plane to conserve energy and change the effective turn rate.
Wes Clarke

I also remember 720°/sec and if you continued this for more than a 360° roll you would experience roll rate coupling i.e. severe yawing.
In 64 or 65 I opened an air show at NKX in a RF-8A by doing a max rate roll while salvoing a full load of the small night photo flares at 500 kts. It was suppose to produce a horizontal "X" or infinity sign and make a lot of noise. At the end of the roll the nose had yawed about 10-15° which was enough to make me glad I had stopped where I had.
Jerry Kuechmann

My recollection is that an item on the post maintenance test flight was a supersconic max deflection roll- never figured out why but soldiered on-helmet banging on canopy-who wouldn't give anything to do it now!
Marty Johnson

I was buzzing along at about .97 or so and did one of these rolls. It was so quick i smacked both side of my helmet and chipped off the gel-coat.
Duane Kalember

506.
I am an old Marine with very little time in the prettiest ship, droop up, wing down, that ever flew a mission. I never saw one that wasn't a 2 ragger when it came to hydraulic leaks. I remember looking in the mirrors at myself and thinking that I was the luckiest son of a bitch in the world. I am sure that Harry Lake, Sam Badiner, Bob Marshall, and a host of others would agree.
I am near 70 years old now and as with most of us, my days are numbered, but I will forever remember those who dragged their collective asses in the greatest fighter ever built. There are many things I cannot share with my civilian friends, but I still share with you all. For our day, we were there. No one, but we few remaining, will know the joy and comradeship we all share. I hope that the men and women who follow us share the same joys, sadness, and ecstasy that we all knew. May the good Lord forgive us our insane vanity, and be proud of us for what we did, in the dark of night, against what was thrown at us, and lastly for our unbelievable profanity, grant us pardon and welcome us to our just reward, whatever it is? As a Marine, deep down, I was always proud to be part of the NAVAL SERVICE. Please don't spread that around, it might damage my image.
Semper Fidelis,
J. D. "Diz" Gilliard
Signal "Charlie"

507.
On January 22, 1968, I was a young LTJG at Naval Air Station Miramar, California, attached to Navy Fighter Squadron VF-53 preparing for a deployment to Vietnam aboard the USS Bon Homme Richard, CVA-31. As part of the pre-deployment regimen, all pilots were briefed to fly Field Mirror Landing Practice (FMLP) that night beginning about 2100. This was our last chance to practice before deployment; we were scheduled to fly our planes to NAS North Island two days hence so that the planes could be lifted aboard the carrier with a crane. Craning A/C aboard the ship before deployment was common practice so that all aircraft and pilots would be assured of leaving with the ship.

As part of NATOPS (NAVAL AVIATION TECHNICAL OPERATENG PROCEDURES), we were required to get a minimum number of FMLPs of which I needed five (5) more. Sometimes, we referred to these FMLPs as "bounces" because we landed, added full power, and leaped back into the air resembling a bounce. We were briefed by the LSO (Landing signal Officer). Each of the squadrons had one aviator who had been to LSO school. Our LSO was Lt. George Hise. George was sharp and a laidback kind of guy. After he lost his brother, Jim, a fellow VF-53 pilot on the previous cruise, he didn't see the need to waste any part of his life being worried about anything. During his briefing, he stressed the need for a tight pattern, and a close adherence to assigned pattern altitude. He also emphasized proper spacing so that the maximum number of FMLPs could be accomplished in the minimum amount of time.

Around 2000 we manned our aircraft, the F8E Crusader; of course, it was dark. That was the whole point of this flight, wneeded night FMLPs. Some squadrons would schedule their night FMLPs right after 1800, which according to the Navy rules at the time, would qualify as a night landing. However, we referred to those night landings when it was not totally dark, as "pinkies". Preflight and taxi out were uneventful. I was not the first pilot to get airborne, so as I sat in the cockpit awaiting takeoff, I was watching the lights of the aircraft making the FMLPs to get an idea of the interval between the aircraft and where my place in the pattern might be.

Like most of my fellow pilots, I was going to be as aggressive as possible with my technique entering the FMLP pattern. I thought it through quickly, I would leave the gear down and the wing up as I picked up about 170 knots after takeoff. Remember, this aircraft was the F8E with a wing that was raised and lowered at the leading edge and hinged at the trailing edge where it was attached to the fuselage (the flaps and slats deployed automatically when the wing was raised). I envisioned an aggressive pull up to about 30 degrees nose up while rolling the aircraft to about 60-75 degrees of roll so I could stop the rapid climb at pattern altitude. I knew that no one would see my performance this late at night, but I would have the satisfaction of knowing I had been very aggressive with the aircraft and yet safely performed the maneuver. I was cleared for takeoff. I began my takeoff roll with basic engine thrust (without afterburner) because of the light load of fuel. Just
after rotation at 131 knots, I began the planned steep climbing turn to join my fellow pilots in the downwind pattern. At approximately 150' above the ground, I experienced a total electrical failure. There was not one single light illuminated in the cockpit. As per the NATOPS emergency procedures, I found the RAT (Ram Air Turbine) handle and pulled it. This released a small propeller driven generator designed to give basic lighting and electrical power to the instruments and radio. As I waited for the RAT to come up to speed and thus begin supplying electrical power, I began recovering from the unusual attitude I was in at the time electrical failure occurred. Remember that I had been performing a "Sierra Hotel" (Shit Hot - a term common among Naval Aviators) maneuver. For the next few seconds I was real busy trying to get some bearings from the outside world because I could see nothing in the cockpit... Nothing! I was in total darkness. Not a single light ever appeared.
I kept thinking, "That RAT should be up to speed by now!" I later found out that the generator was ok, but I had blown some fuses - cause unknown. I had my flashlight, but I was using both hands to fly. I was so preoccupied with getting the aircraft under control and not getting too slow, I found myself fast and about to run up the tailpipe of the F8E ahead of me. As I pulled off power and swung wide to avoid a midair collision, I thought -- "what better substitute for my instruments than that aircraft. I'll fly his wing right down to touchdown." In normal situations a pilot would never join on another aircraft without letting the other pilot know. Then the lead pilot would make all his maneuvers and decisions allowing for the wingman, but this situation was not normal! Once the decision was made, my pucker fact or decreased to about 20% (based on the premise that with a 100% pucker factor, a pilot could bite a "doughnut" out of his seat cushion with his anus).

I rendezvoused with the F8E just as the pilot began his turn off the "180" (The "180" was the position about 1 mile abeam the intended landing point headed in the opposite direction from the active runway heading). As he turned his aircraft away from me, it made my job of rendezvousing (undiscovered) easier because the pilot was looking at the runway so as to adjust his turn to rollout in the "groove". The groove was an imaginary point short of the runway where the centerline and a 3 degree glideslope were one and the same. I wanted to rendezvous undetected and remain undetected because the discovery of an aircraft only 10 to 20 feet away might cause the unsuspecting pilot to perform some violent maneuver thinking that he was about to have a midair collision. I was careful to rendezvous from below and to the right...opposite from where the other pilot had his attention focused. I was also careful not to get too close because, with experience, a pilot can tell when the
airflow over his aircraft is being disturbed by another aircraft flying too closely.

As he made our approach, I was desperately trying to watch his aircraft with one eye and watch the runway with the other. I wanted to be sure that the pilot was heading where I wanted to go, and more importantly, he was not flying below the glidepath where I might hit the ground before him since I was flying behind and below his aircraft. Finally, about 1/2 mile from the runway I saw the "ball" and knew that, so far, all was well. The "ball" of course was the bright ball of light on the fresnel lens that gives carrier pilots their glideslope reference during approaches to the carriers. I was feeling more comfortable now because I could see the runway, the ball, and my unsuspecting leader. This meant I could safely land my airplane and not hit anyone else since the next aircraft would be at least a mile behind us. My landing was uneventful and I rolled all the way to the end of the 8000' runway. I set the parking brake and waited for someone to come get me in a " Follow
Me" truck so I would be under the positive control of the tower while crossing the parallel and active runway. (The "follow me truck" always had direct radio communications with the tower.) I later found out that the LSO had called the tower and notified the controller that a "dark aircraft" had landed.

I waited for what seemed like an eternity, but no one came. There was not one single flashing red light on the entire airfield. I figured no one knew I was there. I was becoming worried that if the next aircraft that landed came to a full stop, he might roll to the end and hit my aircraft since we normally did not use a taxi or landing light, and my aircraft was unlit due to the electrical failure. The more I thought about it, the more I thought "I'm a sitting duck." I thought the Commanding Officer would, at the very least, accuse me of using poor headwork should I sit there and get hit. So, I made the decision to cross the parallel (and active) runway without clearance from the tower.

I watched the aircraft land on the active runway for a few minutes so I could get a feel for the traffic rhythm. Then I bolted across the runway just behind an aircraft on landing rollout, and no one knew, or cared, at that point because I had successfully made it.

But I was having a difficult time taxiing the plane; the nose gear steering relied on electrical power through a switch on the stick; it controlled the hydraulic piston that turned the nose gear in unison with the rudder pedals. Using differential braking, I began my taxi to the fuel pits since normal procedure was to refuel the aircraft on the taxi in and before we parked the aircraft. It was a known fact that a full fuel tank was much less a fire hazard than one not full due to a lack of air/fumes in the tank. The standard procedure was to fold the wings so that the aircraft would fit into the narrow lanes between the different fueling stations. Another reason for folding the wings during refueling was that a pressure relief or vent valve (located in the wing fold area) could be checked by verifying that air was escaping through the vent during refueling.

Of course, I arrived at the fuel pits unannounced and unexpected. The fueling personnel had some difficulty directing my aircraft which, without lights, they could not see very well. But finally, after some squinting and misdirection, I was parked and chocked in the pit, engine still running. One of the enlisted men climbed up to the cockpit, and over the engine noise he began to yell at me. He relayed to me that I was to get this aircraft fixed. Then I was to return to the FMLP pattern for the required number of FMLPs. Heaven forbid that I should be short one of those stupid FMLPs! With me in the cockpit, the engine running, wheels chocked, and the wings folded, an electrician's mate crawled up the side of the aircraft and began looking for solutions to my electrical problem in the bottom of the cockpit. He was literally on his head between my legs wrestling with the stick, cursing, and reaching for the fuses/circuit breakers. Several times he nearly kicked me in the
face as he struggled for the proper position. I imagine from a distance he rather looked as if he were being eaten by the cockpit with only his gyrating legs sticking out. After about 10 minutes of having this mechanic in my tiny cockpit with his butt in my face, he was able to restore partial electrical power to my aircraft by resetting some circuit breakers. I now had my radio, and five cockpit instrument lights i.e. attitude gyro, altimeter, vertical speed indicator, airspeed indicator, and clock.

Now that I had a working radio, I called the O.D. (Officer of the Day) LTJG Bob Gerhardt on our squadron frequency. I told him what had happened and that I was going home as soon as I could park this poor excuse for an airplane. Not so! The O.D. informed me that I had not fulfilled my requirement for the five remaining "bounces". No! I argued that I was tired, it was nearly midnight, and I was through. Mentally, I was already on my way home to my wife, Fran, and my son, Scott. However, the O.D. had spoken with the Operations Officer and I had to get those "bounces". However, he conceded that I could wait for another aircraft to return from the FMLP pattern in about an hour. I cursed under my breath that the Navy "sucked." I questioned my sanity for ever joining the NROTC in college. But I knew that if it were not for the NROTC scholarship I received at the University of North Carolina I would have been unable to attend college, and thus, I would probably be working in some filling station in my hometown of Myrtle Beach, S.C. Eventually, I gave in -- disobeying a direct order was not going to help my career. I told the O.D. that I would take this aircraft and get the five bounces; I didn't want to wait; I wanted to get this over with. I thought, "If the electrical failure occurs again, I can handle it." After all, I did get this sick puppy back on the ground safely the last time, didn't I?

As I taxied out to runway 24, I was in a hurry, pissed off that all this had happened to me, and thought about the fact that we only had a few days left before we would ship out for the Far East -- I should be home snuggled against my wife, Fran, asleep, or better yet... Anyway, I'd be home soon... Real soon!

The distance from the fuel pits to the takeoff end of runway 24 at Miramar normally takes about 2 minutes. I probably cut that time tin half. As I approached the "hold short" area, the tower called to ask if I was on frequency and was I ready for an immediate takeoff. I re plied, "Yes!" out of habit. Hell, I was ready to get this all over with. My habit pattern was to do the takeoff checklist at this point. The tower called back with a clearance to make an immediate takeoff because there was an aircraft on final two miles out. I added some power, began closing the canopy, and looked down to the takeoff check list. Damn lights! I couldn't see a thing! I struggled with the canopy...the wind was getting caught under it and I had to really get up in the seat to get some leverage. It locked! I added some more power. I tried to remember what was on the checklist. Normally, I would read the little takeoff checklist placard located on the lower right hand side of the instrument
panel; but without lights, I couldn't. I had better stop and get my flashlight out. No...it was too late! I was on the runway now! That aircraft on short final would be landing soon.

I added more power and desperately tried to remember the takeoff check list. I'm doing 80 knots now. I brought the power up to 100%. Oh yes! Canopy closed and locked. Check. Wing up. Check. Scan the instruments...they looked o.k. 100 knots speed and increasing rapidly. Oh, what the hell! I did that checklist about 30 minutes earlier on the previous flight. What could have changed? 120 knots...I had better start flying the plane. I'll worry about that check list later.

At 130 knots, I relaxed the forward pressure I had held on the stick to keep the nose from bouncing during the take off roll. But before I could put any back pressure on the stick for rotation, the plane leaped into the air with the nose rising rapidly. Using the trim button on the stick, I put in nose down trim and lots of nose down stick. I stopped the nose at about 15 degrees nose up and began lowering it to about 7-8 degrees above the horizon. The whole aircraft was buffeting. What's the hell is wrong? Jesus! I might have to get out of this thing! I know that damn Martin Baker seat will break my back. At the very least it will crush a vertebra. For the second time in less than an hour my pucker factor was approaching the 90% range. Two emergencies in a row! I'm less than l00' into the air and things aren't getting any better. University City is straight ahead...lot's of homes...better turn to the right...Jesus! I put in a little right aileron and the aircraft did a
snap roll! I'm inverted! I can't eject! Left rudder and left aileron! I'm coming back to the left too fast! I overshoot wings level badly. I flew better that this on my first flying lesson in a Piper Cherokee. What the hell is going on? After a couple of oscillations I finally settled down to some semblance of wings level flight. "Miramar tower, this is NJ207. I have some serious control problems. I may have to get out." Boy! I was surprised how calm I sounded! I thought I was pretty dammed cool, considering that inverted business seconds ago. But then this wasn't my fault! And, besides, should I elect to eject, the Navy could well afford to buy another airplane cheaper than replace me. We, as Naval aviators, had been told since pre-flight in Pensacola, Florida, that it was cheaper for the Navy to buy another aircraft than to train another pilot. The reply from the tower was like someone stabbed me with an icicle. "Roger, NJ207, your wings are folded." Calm...matter of
fact. I shivered. Hoping I had misunderstood him, I answered, "My what is what?" There went cool, calm, and radio discipline, out the window...no call sign, no addressee, just panic. I looked into the rear view mirrors only to see the wing tip position lights sticking straight up into the air above the wing fold area. They must have folded up during the takeoff roll. Surely I had unfolded the wings. After all, I always unfold the wings...it's on the takeoff checklist! Just a flash of a thought raced through my mind; I tried to do the takeoff checklist, but those stupid lights were out! By now I doing 180 knots, and I eased off on the power. Nothing felt right, and the plane was still buffeting. I took my left hand from the throttle and reached down to take control of the stick; with my right hand I reached back on the far right console only to find the wing-fold handle sticking straight up, not stowed flush with the console as it should have been. "Shit!" I yelled to no one.

Now I knew it was my fault that those wings were folded. I glanced into the rear view mirrors again. The wing tip position lights were now canted inward as the wings had continued to fold under the tremendous airloads. I later found out that the arm connecting the hydraulic cylinder to the wing fold mechanism had broken under the airloads allowing the wingtips to almost lay down upon the top of the main wing further reducing its lifting capability. The F8E had a 35' wing span and a fuselage about 6' wide. I had folded 12' (about 6' on each side), and now that 12' of folded wings was lying on top the remaining wing. I wondered what was keeping her in the air.

I asked for and received permission to turn right to avoid University City. I had not done so well on my first attempt without permission. This time I used more rudder and less aileron and managed to hit no more than 45 degrees of roll. My mind began to race...everything was in slow motion. I began recalling an article in APPROACH magazine in which Naval Aviation news was published each month. A featured article each month was Grandpa Pettibone who highlighted some Naval aviator's screw-up, what caused it, what was done about it, and what should have been done about it. The adrenaline was really pumping at this moment, and I was recalling verbatim an article written months earlier on some pilot who had taken off with his wings folded in an F8E. I remembered thinking "God, how could a guy do that?" Now I knew. I was recalling what Grandpa Pettibone had said. "Jumping Jehoshaphat! If them wings are folded and you're still flying, don't mess with 'em!" At that moment, those
words of advice were ringing in my ears.

About that time, George came up on tower frequency, and asked "Ron. This is George. How are you doing?" My answer was short and sweet, "It's still flying." He replied, "That a good sign." And we went on to discuss pattern speed (about 180 knots), approach speed (about 170 knots), and threshold speed (about 160 knots). Of course, everything depended on whether the plane continued to fly and if the aircraft felt like it wanted to stall at the lower airspeeds. Unspoken, but understood, was the old DFW (Don't F--- with) theory (If something's working o.k., don't turn a knob or flip a switch, just leave everything alone). We also discussed lowering the hook to assist in stopping the aircraft because of the faster approach speeds; additionally, I had the possibility of losing hydraulics due to possible damage to the wing fold mechanism. I didn't want to lower the hook because the extra expense of grinding down a hook point on the concrete runway might turn this incident into
an accident (Cost of repairs in an incident determined if it was to be upgraded to accident status). George reminded me that if I rolled off the side or the end of the runway, that it wasn't going to look good in the headwork department. I reluctantly agreed that I had already screwed up enough. I put down the hook. I didn't tell George, but I figured he was giving me good advice. Besides, letting him help me with the thinking relieved my stress load. During this affair, it had occurred to me that I had violated one of my cardinal rules never to remain with an aircraft that wasn't flying or was in serious trouble. Also it dawned on me that it had become a challenge to bring back the airplane in one piece since my DELTA
SIERRA (DUMB S--T to you non-pilots) headwork had caused this little incident that would be known within 24 hours by the entire Naval Aviation community. I was really concentrating on the flying characteristics of this aircraft as I slowed it down. I was reminding myself that if I had to get out, I would try to get the A/C upright before pulling the curtain on the ejection seat. At low altitude the seat (with me in it) could hit the ground before the automatic seat/man separation and parachute deployment could occur. The pucker factor was still with me.

Although the aircraft continued to buffet continuously, the approach was rather uneventful. The F8 had an especially long fuselage; that was the reason the wing was designed to go up and down thus bringing the fuselage closer to horizontal (less cocked up), for visibility, during landing ops. Due to the folded wing tips, the wing was effectively shortened by 12 feet, thus producing less lift. This forced me to hold the nose higher than normal during approach. This, combined with the long fuselage, made me think there was a good chance I would hit tail first if I didn't work out a plan. I decided to make a power on landing and just before touchdown, push the stick forward to bring the nose down and thus reduce the chance that the tail would hit first. If I could do this just inches above the ground, I would not give the aircraft a chance to set up an excessive sink rate. It worked! I felt relieved. After touchdown, I rolled into the arresting gear where the hook worked as
advertised. It caught the wire and the aircraft came quickly to a stop. The flight had taken only 7 minutes.

Field personnel came out and disengaged the hook from the arresting cable. I taxied to the ramp area and parked the aircraft where every one of the pilots and enlisted men who were not busy in the FMLP operations were waiting to find out if the wings had folded by themselves or if I had screwed up. They all had that look on their face that said "I'm glad it wasn't me!" The O.D. told me that he had called the Skipper (Commanding Officer, CDR. Paul Gilchrist) and he, the Skipper, wanted me to call him. The O.D. had called him the m oment he heard from the tower that I was in trouble and might have to eject. I felt betrayed and scared. I knew the Skipper would find out; hell, the Skipper found out everything! That was part of his job. But this soon...I wasn't prepared. I dialed the Skipper's number and he picked up on the first ring. "Skipper, this is Ron Lambe." He asked quickly and calmly, "Are you alright?" "Yes Sir," I replied. "And how is my airplane?" he continued.
"Well Sir, I got it back on the ground o.k., but the piano hinge on the top of the wing fold is bent and the arm on the wing fold mechanism is broken. Otherwise, she looks o.k." I answered trying my best not to make it sound any worse than it was. I braced myself for a good dose of ass-chewing; I was pretty new in the squadron and didn't really know the Skipper that well. My pucker factor was high...real high. But the Skipper surprised me by telling me to call my wife and tell her I was through flying for the night and I was on my way home. The call was just in case someone (i.e. news media) had heard what had happened and called my house looking for a story. Man, this guy was sharp; I wouldn't have thought of that. And then he said, "Ron, I'm glad you are alright. You just go home and get some sleep. We'll talk about this in the morning. Can you be in my office at 0800?" "Yes Sir," I answered. I then went to the locker room and changed from my flight suit into my kaki
uniform. I called Fran as I was instructed, keeping it simple, and headed home. She had been asleep and I could tell that she was puzzled that I had called since I would not call her under normal circumstances.

As I drove home to Poway located just 5 miles north of NAS Miramar, I began to recount what had happened and how lucky I had been. When I arrived home, I awakened my wife and told her everything that had occurred on my flight. As all good wives do, she listened intently and sympathetically although it was now about "Oh dark thirty." I was plenty wired and wasn't sleepy. I stared at the ceiling until about 0400 before I finally allowed sleep to rescue me from the worry of having to see the Skipper in the morning. Morning came quickly. Too quickly! I awoke with a start when the alarm went off at 0700. I took a quick shower while Fran fixed me a bite to eat. I didn't eat much though; I was antsy. I was out the door about 0740 for the 10 minute drive to Miramar. I did n't want to be late! Fran gave me a kiss and wished me luck. Scott was only three years old; he hugged me goodbye, and I wished I could trade places with him.

I knocked on the Skipper's door promptly at 0800. "LT. JG Lambe reporting as ordered," I announced. The skipper was waiting for me. "Come in, Ron," he answered. I marched in smartly in Military fashion and stood at attention in front of his desk staring out into space. Calmly he said, "sit down, Ron." In front and to the right of his desk, I sat in the good old military issue chair, steel frame with a torn, cheap leather seat.

"Get any sleep?" he asked.

"No Sir. I was kinda wound up."

"You want to tell me how this happened?"

He listened intently to my every word as I told him the sequence of events that led to my screw-up.

"Did you learn anything from last night's incident?

"Yes, Sir."

"And what was that?"

"I learned that you never take off without doing the takeoff checklist."

"Ron, what happened to you last night has happened before and it will happen again. (He was right; it did.) You were lucky this time, but you may not be so lucky again. You have learned a very valuable lesson that will serve you well in the future. You really got out cheap. And I'm really glad you're o.k. You are o.k. aren't you?

"Yes Sir."

"Good. That's all.".."Oh, Ron!"

"Yes, Sir."

"Do you feel like flying?"

"Yes, Sir."

"Then talk to the O.D. and see if he can spare an aircraft for you to fly."

"Yes, Sir"

I saluted, did an about face, and walked smartly out of his office; dumfounded. He was supposed to chew my ass out, wasn't he? Or was he? I thought to myself, "The Skipper is really an alright guy. I hope I can repay him for the decent treatment and the good advice by being a good officer while under his command." I did, in fact, do my best and didn't screw up again until that incident after being sick with the Hong Kong flu...but that's another story. CDR Gilchrist turned out to be the best skipper I had while I was in the Navy. After three months into the cruise, the Skipper was due for a change of orders; he was relieved by CDR. Harry Blake. CDR. Gilchrist went on to the pentagon, was promoted to the rank of Captain, made CAG (Commander Air Group), and a few years later he made Admiral. He really was... a great guy. By the way, CDR Harry Blake, about 11 months later, was the next, and last (that I know of) Naval aviator to takeoff the F-8 with the wings folded. And I
never let him forget it either!

As a footnote, I saw and spoke with Admiral Gilchrist near his home in California in about 1978. He had already written his books "Feet Wet" and "Crusader: Last of the Gunfighters"; He autographed my "Crusader...". I had already written this account of my experience. When I met with him, I let him read this account. He thanked me for the nice words I had written about him, and asked if he might keep the copy that he had read. I told him "Of course". Then I asked him, "Skipper, why didn't you chew my ass out for making such a stupid error?" He replied, "Ron, it would have served no good purpose. After your harrowing experience, you were the most careful, and the safest pilot, I had in my squadron."

508.
BLACK JACK FINLEY ,
SALUTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"JACK FINLEY" WAS MY MAINT: OFFICER IN VF-13, ON-BOARD THE SHANGRI-LA CVA-38 . SKIPPERS WERE "CDR PETE EASTERLING, CDR GREGORY & CDR BRANDELL". BLACK JACK FINLEY STORY; ALWAYS LIKE TO TELL THIS ONE !!!!

WE HAD A BAZILLION GREEK VIP'S ON-BOARD, UP ON THE FLIGHT DECK. JUMPIN' JACK FLASH ,AS HE WAS REFERRED TO BY MANY BACK THEN, CAME IN-BOUND OFF THE PORT SIDE STRAIGHT AT THE SHIP.
AT 2000 YARDS OUT HE HIT AFTER-BURNER".
HELD HER PRETTY CLOSE TO THE DECK, AND JUST A SHORT WAYS FROM THE SHIP HE YANKED THE STICK BACK.
WELL, NEEDLESS TO SAY HE STOOD HER ON HER TAIL AND HELD IT. BUT NONE OF THE GREEKS SAW IT COZ THEY HIT THE DECK FACE DOWN, THAT SCARED THE BEE-JEEBERS OUT OF ALL OF THEM !!! TOO, TOO, FUNNNNNNNY !!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!
FAIR WINDS & FOLLOWING SEAS, SHIP-MATE !!!!!
V/R
AFCM DAVE BEBOUT
USN RETIRED
(1964-1995)

509.
Somewhere on a pretend ocean (Med), ships service hop -- high speed runs on a tin can. Jack briefed the alternating runs, then says "Ever done a formation roll?" Nope. "OK, here's what we'll do...". After the last run, joined up at about angels 2. Jack motions me in to where he wants me.... not Blue Angel close, but big eyes close for me regardless. Practice roll 1 -- I avoid colliding, thats about all. Practice roll 2 -- wobbly bobbly but hung in there. Big thumbs up, and away we go. Run in at bridge height, pull up to about 15 deg. nose high, and roll. Arcing path, horizontal and inverted right over the tin can, Jack's timing is perfect, and the man is so smooth I have no trouble holding good position. Roll complete at about 15 deg.nose down, level off and disappear at bridge height.

That roll was with you, Jack. The next one is for you.

Fireball sends

510.
Jack, George Anderson, (also deceased, son of the former CNO) and I went through flight training together, always vying to see who could finish first and fastest out of our Naval Academy Class of 1957. We all gave up over a months non-recoverable leave to start the program as early as we possibly could after graduation. jack finished 1st, as may be expected, but we were all within a couple days of each other, finishing the program in just over 13 months. A sad side note to this is that Red Isaacs was one of our instructors in advanced training flying the F9F-8's at Beeville, TX. One of the most fun times of our lives! We were all bachelors and we all loved flying and all the other things that went with being young, and free of any responsibilities other than doing our utmost to be the best.
More recently, I had been in touch with Jack after he was diagnosed with cancer and we exchanged a few e-mails and thoughts.
I prayed hard for Jack to pull through this but I guess what will be will be. I am very sorry to hear he lost the battle. He was a good friend, a classmate, and one heck of a pilot.
Al Wattay

511.
We lost a great one. I threw a nickel...and tomorrow...I'm going to go to Swami's on Coast Highway 101...on the cliff...and I am going to throw a nickel in the ocean...because I know that is where Jackson is. The reason I think that he chose burial at sea...is because he always told me that he missed the sea...He was a sailor at heart.
A memory of Jackson...When he was at Edwards AFB, as an Astronaut, he flew the F-104 in one of the Annual Edwards airshows. Somehow, he stashed a Navy sword and a bridge cap in the cockpit...and he wore his Navy Whites under his flight suit. As he taxiied past the grandstand....he shucked his upper flight suit...put on his bridge cap...held his sword up...and threw a sign over the side of the cockpit, that said FLY NAVY!.....What a guy, for aptness of forethought!...That was Black Jack...he always wore a White Hat! That's worth a nickel and another roll.

Hook Miller

512.
As I read the many emails that have been written on behalf of my dad, it warms my heart at this painful and emotional time. During one of my recent visits with my dad I told him a true tribute to his life is the quality of friends he has around him which is now being proven over and over again.

Being raised by Black Jack Finley was an experience in itself and even though I gave my dad a run for his money so to speak in raising me, it was only because I am so much like him. It is in that light that I couldnt ask for a greater gift from my father than the real things only he could have instilled in me; qualities of loyalty, commitment, steadfastness, integrity and never settling for the norm. It is these Finley qualities I hope I have passed on to his grandsons, my sons two up and coming Finley men I hope the world is ready. (Though my dad and his name live on, there will only be one Black Jack Finley - he is a true original).

I couldnt be prouder than to be Black Jacks daughter. Truly one of the finest moments of my life is to walk through his passing with such a group of world class people as you all are. Thank you all for caring for my dad and helping him live a life most people can only dream about.

Heaven will never be the same Black Jack Finley has arrived. Fly high dad.

Cindy Webster

513.
The year was 1956. Major Lynn Helms , one of the 10 test pilots in the Flight Test office at Patuxent River and on his second tour, and Commander Duke Windsor, Chief of Projects at Flight Test, had both been to Edwards to evaluate the X and YF8U-l. These first flights were called Navy Preliminary Evaluations (NPE). Our first test plane arrived at Flight Test Patuxent August 1956. I was intially assigned as Lynns Assistant. Two Marines and Duke to test this great airplane! Hooray!!! My first flight was 17 August 1956 in BuNo 140446. The company pilots, John Conrad, Bob Rostine, and Hank Lankford, provided invaluable information about the airplane characteristics and the company's history with it. The plane was most impressive. Now flight testing at this point, at both Test PIlot School and Flight Test, involved using an "Ames guage" to measure stick forces, a stop watch to time certain maneuvers, and a knee pad card with the points the engineers wanted to have recorded. Later later equipment was installed on board so that when the trigger was pulled a bright light came on, and a picture was taken of the instruments so the enginers could see the readingsand reduce the data. There were many planes on the flight line to fly, and as Flight Test pilots we flew them all -- Included were the F4D, FJ-4, A3D, F11, F3H, A4D, TV, F9F-8 series, T2V, F7U, S2F, TF, TT-l (tempo trainer), Beech 73 (a proposed trainer), French Fouga Magister trainer, etc. I tested over 40 types/models myself. Some of the others that operated out of the Flight Test Branch at Patuxent in the 55-57 time frame, and you old time Navy F8 pilots probably recognize many: Lt. Tom Hayward (Later CNO), LtCdr Al Shepard, (astronaut), Lt Bill Lawrence (VAdm and POW), LtCdr Bill Botts (Unk), Lt Jake Ward (CAG and CV), Lt Cdr George Watkins (1000 CV landings), Don Engen (VAdm and head FAA), Lynn Helms (head FAA), Gordo Gray (World Record A4), Laurie Heyworth (Adm), Larry Flint (CAG , VX3), and myself. Two TPS classmates that did well included Lew Edwards (Adm), and Spin Epes (Adm) Our performance instructor was one Lt Jim Stockdale (MOH, F8 , POW, Adm). Lifelong friends are best friends. Each of these gents have individual stories of many airplanes and test experiences. After we flew our test card, if we had any fuel left, some of us then looked for someone to engage in ACM. What fun with the F8U! Major Helms resigned to work for Bendix, then Piper and then to head the FAA, and I got the full project when he left. Hooray! I recall that most of the 10 pilots in the office flew a couple of flights in my project airplane all that did contributed greatly to my flight reports.

One day I set up a "meeting" in the air after a test flight with Major Roy Gray, who was then the project F8 pilot out of Service Test and a great fighter pilot. Now our helmets in those days only had snaps to fasten the mask to the helmet. No such thing as bayonet fittings. I met him head on, fast, at about 29000 feet, and the fight started. As I layed on the "g" to go vertical to do a roll off on him, the snap gave way, so I rolled in a fistfull of trim to maintain some g, and reached up with both hands to resnap the mask. Then I saw that Roy had gained on me, so I yanked the stick back farther, forgetting the preset G, and it shook like a terrier, snapped over the top, and into a real man sized spin at over 30,000 feet! (As an aside, the company test pilots had already spun the airplane by this time with a spin chute installed. They found they could only recover about l in 3 times without using this chute. No one dreamed of ever blowing the droop!) Well, the spin was really quite a ride. My knees were banging hard on the consoles, debris was everywhere, pitch oscillated intially from about 40 to 70 degrees nose down with a rapid rate of yaw and roll. I immediately put in pro aileron, opposite rudder and full back stick. Absolutely no response! After several turns Roy said" better get out!" I noted that the pitch oscillations had changed over several turns and were now between about 50 to 110 degrees, so as a last ditch maneuver, at 110 degree pitch, I popped the stick full forward. The nose dropped to the characteristic 190 deg. nose down recovery position at around 12,000 feet and I recovered near 6000 feet. I went at least 9 turns, losing about 2,000-2,500 feet per turn. Well, I snuck back to the base, told RoyI would call him, but in the meantime keep it quiet! As I landed and taxied into the line, though, I noted a box-like sea land van. Suddenly the door flew open and out popped 3 people who ran up, and said "WHAT HAPPENED?" I had not known about it, but it was a new experimental telemetering van, and the plane had had the TM readout capability installed in it from the factory. They had watched the whole thing! They saw roll rate, pitch rate, altitude, speeds, etc. The secret was out! Interestingly, they then sent these data back to LTV, where the engineers found from the data that they could blow the droop without structural damage to the airplane, which allowed one to recover in one turn or less without a problem. After Flight Test and 2 wonderful years in our first Marine West Coast F8 squadron, I went back into test work at VX-5 and on to today with 61 years of great flying and never duty in Washington!!!!!!!!!!! A great flying career, and happy to be still doing it!!! During the 2 years operational out of El Toro I fought many of you in the Palomar ACM area. What a life! Now, lets hear from any of you who experienced a fully developed spin with or without using the droop. ALL THE BEST---CHEERS !
ANON.

514.
It was summertime in Jacksonville and I was one of the first two nuggets in VF-174, the Crusader RAG. After about six flights in the Crusader, Doc Townsend chased me for my 1000 mph pin. As I tried to climb over some clouds at 55K near Gainesville, I let the speed bleed off to about 220. Doc called and suggested a 180 turn. During the turn I entered an IFR spin which got pretty wild. Back stick, ailerons into, rudder against, blew the droop. The RMI seemed to indicate a right turn spin. Nose was bobbing through about 60 degrees. Fire was coming out of the intake. I recovered at about 25K, still IFR. From the handbook I calculated that it had made about 14 revolutions. It took a few years to get my confidence back to where I could spin any aircraft again, and I still havent spun my Glasair. Best to you all . . .
Bob Shumaker.

515.
There I was at 40,000' in a nose high attitude trying to shake Kretsinger off my tail.      As I looked back over my right shoulder my Oxy. hose pulled loose, the valve closed and I had no air to breath!
It took both hands to reconnect the hoses and when I looked up the F8 was already well into a hairy-ass spin.        I still remember the procedures ...... lock the shoulder harness, blow the landing droop and hang-on ...... you are going for a ride!
I remember coming out going straight down at the Pacific ocean waiting for the air speed to accelerate to 300 knots so I could pull out.
When I got back to debrief I learned that the riggers had some clips that held the hoses together, but they didn't know what they were for.
Just one more thing to shake-out during the early days.
Dick Alexander

516.
In late 1959, I was flying an F8U-1 out of El Toro over by the Salton Sea. I was a young lieutenant with about 30 hours in the bird, but USMC cocky, out by myself on a beautiful day to enjoy this greatest airplane ever. I was doing acrobatics. At the time of the "event," I was in a loop, topping out at about 30,000 feet, with the aircraft in burner just about vertical heading up, about twenty degrees over the top, hanging in the straps going toward being upside down, but not making much progress.

Suddenly, out of nowhere, the aircraft experienced a deafening incredible gigantic explosion. It was right behind me and shook the whole airframe. I was surprised that I was still flying and not in pieces. I was shocked and stunned. I thought that the gas tank must have exploede, but I really had no clue to what had just happened, or what I should do, so I just held on. Then, about twenty seconds later, there was another even more incredible unbelievable explosion, worse than the first. My brain was just beginning to register again, and I dimly grasped the idea of compressor stalls. With a shock, I realized that I had a choice, either reduce power, or blow the tail off. I had no idea what would happen if I reduced power, but it seemed better that than the risk of blowing the aircraft up. So, before the next explosion, I pulled the power back, and got an ever worse shock. Immediately--not even a second went by-- the aircraft flipped. In the blink of an eye, my head hit both sides of the canopy. I moved the stick and rudder and there was no response, none, zip. So far as I could tell, the right wing and tail came up and over and the aircraft just flipped and swapped ends and cartwheeled through the air, not flying at all, banging me this way and that in the cockpit. I was scared just about out of my mind. With my heart in my mouth, it was all I could do to maintain any semblance of calm. I was able to remember that test pilots had told us that the F8U only recovered from spins about half the time, and only if you were really lucky because normal spin recovery techniques just made things worse. But they also told us that sometimes zero g helps, a little nugget of information that I was able to recall. (No one ever told us to blow the droop or raise the wing or drop the wheels.) We also knew that, when headed down at speed, safe ejection altitude was pretty high. The airplane careened across the sky for what seemed like an endless time, but was probably about a minute, and then it began a violent spin to the left, sometime nose up, sometimes nose down, sometimes upside down, never right side up. The aircraft ended up in pretty much a fast flat spin upside down. I looked at what was happening and thought I was a goner. Not knowing what else to do, I pushed the stick forward and held it with both hands trying to keep the g-meter at zero, while bouncing around all over the cockpit. I also watched the altimeter to see when ejection was necessary, and once in a while I managed to look up through the top of the canopy to see the ground whirling crazily below, which just scared me again. Round and round we went, all the while a crash looking more and more likely. And then, lo and behold, somewhere under 20,000 feet, the rotation seemed to slow down, and then got slower, and then stopped, and there I was, hanging upside down at zero g with no airspeed at all and falling down through the sky like a rock. The nose was just a little below the horizon, so I hoped more
than thought that maybe this bird might fly again. Very carefully, I tapped the stick just a tiny bit to see if I get the nose down a little more and maybe get air over the wing. It worked. The nose came down a degree or two. I took a quick look at the altimeter, and figured I still had a few seconds before ejecting, and then I tried that
nose down thing again, being really careful not to do anything else stupid that might set off another spin. All this time, the engine was idling at about 85%, and I was not going to mess with power until the airplane was really actually flying. Little by little I got the nose down pretty good, and the aircraft actually started to register airspeed. I eased the nose down not quite to the vertical, still upside down, and let the airspeed run up to about 300 knots. Then I tried the wings, rocked a little bit from side to side, and by God they worked. I slowly rolled the aircraft over so that I was headed down at about 170 degrees, right side up, more or less. I put on some power, very slowly, and the engine came right up. So now, I just had to get the nose up to the horizon, and I might live to fly another day. So I began, very cautiously, to pull the nose up and, sure enough, the airplane was flying again under its own power, apparently no worse for the wear. What a great machine! You can imagine how welcome and how gentle that landing was.
ANON2

517.
When I was in VF-103 in '56 we transitioned from F9F-8's to F8U-1's at Cecil Field. A pilot by the name of Bill Carruthers was out on a training hop with a flight of four. They were, for lack of a better word "dog fighting." Bill was one of those guys who had joined the Navy as an enlisted man and then qualified for flight training. He was a very aggressive pilot, loved to fly and when he got another F8U on his tail hit the speed brake and throttled back in a tight turn. He got so slow with a nose up attitude that the airplane went into a flat spin. They said he lost his forward speed He didn't know how to come out of it and finally ejected at treetop level. He was still in the seat when they found him. The accident investigation team described the spin as a :"falling leaf." spin. I don't know why he waited so long to jump out. He was only 20 years old and was an Ensign..
I had an accident when flying of the Forrestal in the Med just the opposite problem where the throttle linkage came apart on a CAP hop at full bore and couldn't slow down. Had to jump out over Sardinia when the plane ran out of fuel..John Young,who later became an astronaut ,was on the accident investigation team . Got " zero " pilot error.
Bill Haase

518.
I went through VF-124 for Crusader check-out at Moffett Field in late 1959. We finished as a Squadron (mostly) in early 1960 and moved to NAS Alameda to train as VF-24. Cdr. Don Engen was the C.O. of VF-21, a Demon (F3H) squadron in the same air wing (2). I had known him through a friend and talked with him often. I told him that I had spun all the other aircraft that I had flown and thought I would be a better F-8 pilot if I spun the F-8 to get comfortable with the recovery procedures. He suggested that I not do that. He had done the spin test on the F-8 at Patuxent River and of the several spins that he did, he said he had to use the spin chute once. Sam, that is enough for you to not spin the aircraft intentionally. I heeded his recommendation and never intentionally spun the aircraft. I must also add that I never got into a full blown spin as the aircraft was very forgiving if you just let go.
I have over 2600 hours in the F-8, flying it between 1959 and 1972. I loved the aircraft.
Sam Hubbard

519.
I recall that Dutch Schultz, a Vought test pilot, and Hank Lankford showed up early one morning in the VF-154 ready room at Moffet and briefed us on F-8 spin recovery techniques. As a squadron VX - I mean VF 154 - had only one spin episode that I'm aware of during those thrilling, early days. If I remember correctly that occurred during our first in-flight refueling practice behind a R-4Y Tradewind (a 4 engine seaplane). After a successful, wing up, plug-in the intrepid F-8 driver, whose name shall remain anonymous, made a "sierra hotel" departure from the tanker who was balls to the wall at 190 kts . About 2 seconds later the Crusader was seen in a flat spin over Los Gatos. The pilot made a successful ejection at about 2,500 ft AGL and was on the ground after one chute swing. I believe this incident occurred before we 'd received the spin briefing, not that it would have made much
difference.
Dave Winiker

520.
There I was, on Easter Sunday, 1971, protecting my country from my Atlanta, GA, Reserve F-8 squadron, VMF-351, at Dobbins AFB. With about 1000 Crusader hours, I was the section leader. My buddy and I went out on a pretty much unsupervised early training flight that became an ACM practice flight.

Due to ATC constraints, we were operating at FL240, west of town. Having stayed out late the prior evening, I was perhaps not in top form. After a few turns, during which I, of course, was gaining on my adversary, for unknown reasons, my steed abruptly went from the buffet into a spin. Violent is a very appropriate word.

With my helmet leaving paint smears on both sides of the canopy, dirt from the cockpit floor rising to the canopy, my helmet bag, which was stowed in the back left corner of the cockpit, floated up and, I swear, came to rest right on top of the altimeter. My wingman began advising me on corrective action, opposite rudder, forward stick, all of which was not the proper procedure. Vindictive rascal!

About 10,000', I released the stick to move the helmet bag out of the way, and lo and behold, my Crusader stopped the spin all by itself, pointed straight down, and waited for me to execute the pullout, which bottomed out about 3000'.

Having once again been shown the limits she would tolerate, I decided to call it a day early on. While I loved her dearly, like most beautiful creatures, you had to be constantly aware of the limits to which you could push her. I never made the same mistake again.

Bill Houseman

521.
When I joined VF-194 (Hud'n, Hud'n!) in the fall of '68, the squadron's F-8E's had all been ferried to Dallas for conversion to J's. To keep us flying while they were being reworked we had a bunch of F-8B's apparently rejected by the Marines at Iwakuni. A major difference between A's & B's and the later F-8's was, you'll recall, the lack of ventral fins. I always thought they were there for supersonic directional stability, but I reckon they had a little to do with keeping the pointy end forward at low speed too. So we're up hasslin in these B's, I think GarubaJoe was in it too, about half-way out to San Clemente as I recall. I was horsing that old thing around trying to turn a square corner and all of a sudden floop, I'm in a spin. At about 12K feet as I recall, and it didn't take too long to just settle right in. Just a nugget fresh from the Mutha Squadron, I pretty much remembered what NATOPS said to do and was doing it: then I got to the part about blowing the droops. I started fumbling around trying to - what was it? Lift the guard, move the handle back, inboard, then forward, and two hands required? Something like that. By now the altitude is coming up on the magic number, 10K, and it was still definitely out of control. Plus Joe (?) is now yelling at me to eject, which made further messing around with blowing the droops sound like a dumb idea. Well, better dead than look bad, and I knew one way to get those droops out. I unlocked and raised the wing. Not much changed at first, since it takes a good while for the wing to actually get up. Then (now about 7K) it felt different, but was still spinning. I reached for the curtain, jammed my back against the seat, took a deep breath, and ... It stopped spinning! Pointed pretty much straight down, but not spinning. Dang I thought, maybe I could just, well, pull the nose up and go home. So back on the stick, accelerating through 220 but almost there, surely too much g now but it's hanging in there. I don't recall the exact numbers, but around 270 KIAS and nearly 3 g's before it was over rings a bell. I reckoned something might have been damaged, so left the wing where it was and motored on back to NKX. The aircraft suffered no damage (!), and Robbie Roberts wasn't too pissed off at me (except about not ejecting while I was still in the envelope, which I wasn't for most of that part about pulling the nose up, not a rocket seat in the B y'know). Anyhow, we were thinking, if the thing recovers all by itself by raising the wing, why should we be fooling around blowing the droops at all? So we fired off an incident report, a copy of which naturally went to LTV, who had two engineers at Miramar the next morning. They were really surprised the wing didn't come off. They described what happens when it does come off, some analogy to plucking a 24,000 # guitar string and you sitting at the part that gets whipped around the most. Like Beaver. I don't know if that skinny little strut is under compression or not with the wing raised, but I'm pretty sure nobody ever bothered to analyze the loads under the conditions I had it in. They probably figured nobody would be stupid enough to try that. Well, I showed them.
Bull Durham

522.
First of all, I did not spin the Crusader, the Crusader spun me, in a way which confirmed which of us was in charge! And it was not I !

I was at 11,000 feet at about 150 knots, abeam, after a tie ballgame with another VF-174 I.P., when it appeared that he was turning into me to continue the fight.
He hadn't, just a mild stall wing-drop. Of course, I responded with a turn into him, but somethin' didn't feel right - - I glanced at the right-hand mirror and saw to my dismay, the R.H. spoiler sticking up in the wind, and then the fun began!

Many Happy Hours had addressed the NATOPS edict of, if spinning at 10K, one should call upon Messrs Martin and Baker for the solution, but there was a consensus among our highly- experienced cadre, that if spinning through 10,000 feet, why not try raising the wing? This I did without hesitation, but, contrary to the prescribed recovery of full back stick, opposite rudder, and aileron into the (right) spin, I did the rudder and aileron thing, but punched full, forward stick, just because
it felt right. At this point, during the violent ride, all the way hearing the other I.P. yelling for me to punch out, I quickly realized that I was not involved in my recovery, but like a breakfast of eggs and bacon, I was obviously the pig - - committed to it!

Obviously, it was successful, there was no damage done to the wing piston mechanism nor any other part of the airplane, but yet, there was a critical review of my recovery techniques by some Pax River genius and, of course, no change in the F-8 Spin Recovery Procedures.

Such is life ('specially when a dumb shit fighter pilot makes the Test Pilot "experts" search for excuses., while ignoring the obvious).

A few years ago, I was asked about this life "experience". Had that question been posed to me at the time, or even within a few years following, I wouldn't have given it an adequate answer. Now, I would say that, spinning the F-8 "successfully" was just like marriage: You're in it before you know it, It's a wild and scarey ride, and, if you're lucky enough to get out of it, You'll never do it again!
Norm Gandia

523.
In June 1960, on my way through the VF-174 as a bright eyed Ltjg on my way to the World Famous Red Rippers - VF-11. It was my second ACM training flight in the F8U-1. Harry Gerhart (sp) was my instructor. He was a pretty gruff guy and I was plenty intimidated by him. I knew, however, that NOBODY was gonna beat me in a dogfight. Hmmm.

We were turning into each other to begin the second engagement. I had done really well during the first. Took Harry quite a while to generate some angle off. When we got to the second or third turn into each other on the second go, I looked back while at about 20,000 ft in a level turn with the nose on the horizon and saw Harry creeping in on me. I had plenty of airspeed at that point, so I really reefed it into Harry. In an instant I went through onset buffet, tactical buffet, and max buffet in a 90 deg. banked turn to the left with nose on the horizon, to a jarring right flip. Very much like Bill Houseman's experience, I was thrown around the cockpit like a rag for a couple seconds - seemed like forever. Didn't know which end was up. Dust and dirt, and crap from the cockpit was flying all over the place, and my helmet was painting the canopy in a new type of modern art.

The bird quickly settled into a spin and I threw in proper recovery - throttle to idle, full aft stick and into the spin, with opposite rudder. I immediately then blew the droops which resulted in a textbook recovery. Nose was about 60 degrees below the horizon and I was bearing down on 10,000. When I saw airspeed passing 170 kts, I started nursing the nose back up for a slow ride home.

During the debrief, Harry said he was looking at my airplane in a level port turn and the next instant I was inverted and pointed at him. For a moment he thought I'd pulled off the magical square turn. Bottom line - - I repeat what the others have said - - It's a wild and crazy ride for a couple seconds, but if you don't screw up the recovery procedures, she'll fly out of it easily, albeit with a little droop to the wing leading edge.   The F-8 has (had?) a beautiful wing. Clean. Most exciting airplane I ever flew.
           Jim Roberts

524.
I don't think I ever "spun" the F8 but rode through many a wild "uncontrolled" flight, like a rag doll being shaken by a dog. I agree with Sam Hubbard, just let go. I remember one that happened at night. A night radar intercept hop in VF-154 about 1962 or 3 over the Salton Sea. The flight was with Kermit Jackson and as the target, during the last intercept we would do something to make it "difficult" to intercept. I don't recall the altitude I stared at but I let down during the intercept so as to increase speed and foil Kermit's work. I was at about 20,000 and close to 350-400 knots, heh, says I, loop speed. That will really screw him up. Well, nice moon light night some puffy clouds around and up I go. I was waiting for the puffy clouds to come into view and I looked at the airspeed. It was zero and about that time I went for one of those "rides". All I could think of was what am I going to tell the skipper when I eject. Our skipper was Forest Petterson at the time. After the 'ride" I pulled out just in front of Kermit going 90 degrees to him. He said later "how did you do that"? I told him but for many years didn't talk about my dumb shit manuever. Love that airplane!
Russ Bortnem

525.
In the early sixties I was a young "nugget" in VF 62 out of Cecil Field, probably still an ensign. I was flying around somewhere in southern Georgia on one of these hops that had no scheduled mission, when I decided to see if I could get over the top of a loop starting at 35000. I lit the burner and accelerated level to about 1.2 with the cruise droop retracted in a B model (I think). I started the loop pulling about 4 g's and as I decelerated to subsonic I lowered the cruise droop. Everything looked great when I approached the top, so with the nose still about 20 degrees above the horizon and 120 knots indicated I decided to secure the burner. Mistake! It secured with a pop, which also secured the engine. I held a little back pressure on the stick and nursed the nose down to the horizon, but that was it, it wouldn't go any lower. The airspeed went to zero and stayed there, while I hung in my straps. It was so quiet that I could hear the clock ticking. The airplane was apparently falling straight down (from 53000 ft) inverted.

I had enough sense to leave the ailerons alone so when the left wing started down I tried to pick it up with opposite rudder. That didn't do any good, either because there was no airflow past the rudder or because there wasn't enough hydraulic pressure left to move it, probably both. Anyway, the wing continued to fall and the airplane snapped into a violent spin, but right side up. The rotation was to the right and very rapid (I'd say 360 degrees in no more than two or three seconds) and during each revolution the nose went from about 20 degrees low to 170 degrees low and back. I knew the recovery procedure called for blowing the landing droop first, but it was easier said than done, as I was being thrown around the cockpit like a rag doll, even with the shoulder harness locked. I got my hand on the droop handle a half dozen times before I was able to hang onto it long enough to blow the droop. When the droop deployed the violent pitching immediately stopped and the nose hung down at about 170 degrees and the engine was able to windmill, producing plenty of hydraulic pressure. The rest of it was duck soup. Left rudder stopped the rotation and I held the nose down until I picked up about 220 knots, leveled off at 23000 and lit off the engine. It started on the first try. Entering the pattern at Cecil, I decided to blow the wing up since I had no idea whether it would work hydraulicly. Since that worked so well, I blew the gear down too. I landed on 9L. Unfortunately, when I turned off the runway at the end, I realized that the brakes would not release, so I pulled over in the runup area and parked (the only time I ever had parking brakes in the Crusader). I called the squadron and had them send out a mechanic to bleed the brakes. That's when my troubles began.

While I was waiting the skipper (Cdr Joe Moorer) landed and taxied by me, giving me a long hard look. A note in the line shack sent me to the skipper"s office, where he asked me what I was doing sitting at the end of the runway like that. I told him that my brakes wouldn't release. He asked me whether I had any idea why that happened (Iknew I was on the slippery slope, and slipping). I said that it might have been because I blew the gear down. He wanted to know why I did that. I told him that I wasn't sure that they would operate hydraulicly after having blow the wing up. He really seemed to be getting interested in this thing, and asked me why I had blown the wing up. I said it was for the same reason, namely that I didn't know whether it would work hydraulicly after having blown the landing droop down. For some reason he wanted to know why I had blown it down, and I had to confess that it was the only way I could think of to get out of a spin. Then he wanted
to know how I had gotten into the spin, and I told him more or less what the paragraph above says.

The skipper did the rest of the talking, in a loud and agitated voice. He seemed to think I had acted irresponsibly, partly because my airplane had the Delmar boom mounted on the left wing. It was a big piece of iron, and might have been the reason the left wing started to fall.
Don Russell

526.
I had the good luck to make the entire 1968 cruise on Bonnie Dick in VF 51 with Big Daddy as the ship CO. He was loved by every man on that ship ! We had a big change of command party for Bill Parish as he departed command of VF 51, in the summer of '68. The party was held at the Kalaian (sp?) O club at Cubi around the pool patio. EVERYONE on the ship was there. As an honor to Bill Parish, I took the liberty of bringing two "ladies" from the JOLO club to the party and it didn't take long for them to liven the place up - so to speak. Soon the whipped cream came out from behind the bar and found it's way all over the two dancers. Unfortunately, the Kalaian Club was located up in the family housing area of Cubi and two kids watched our fun through the pool fence. When they went home and told their parents what they had seen, the base OOD was sent to our party. Now Big Daddy sprung to action. When the OD arrived (a black shoe LT in whites) he was meet at the patio door with Big Daddy's huge arm around his neck - in a friendly way. Whatever the ship's CO told the gent, he left and the party continued -or actually picked up the pace. More cream, more dancing, and more fun with the girls. I saw Ted laughing with Parish while both men had big globs of whipped cream here and there. Well, finally the OOD from Subic arrived -an 06- and our party was shut down. There was an "investigation" into the entire event but in the end, Bonnie Dick and her Air Wing 5 won out and back to the line we went. No harm done. Dankworth made it all go away somehow, because the blackshoe admiral at Subic was very upset over our creative uses for the whipped cream. Dankworth was our CO and we LOVED him dearly. That is USN leadership at its very best. I am sorry to hear of his loss.

Norm McCoy

527.
Sure sorry to hear "Canopy Man"'is gone, the only guy I could wave on FCLP blindfolded. A typical Pax river grad, it was throttle ,throttle and more throttle. He held a neat attitude and the doughnut, of course, but if a little high, off came the power and when below he'd slam it back on.You could close your eyes and hear him from the 180 till he banged it down on the runway.He was so big across the shoulders that half the time he unlocked the canopy without knowing it. Naturally, off came the canopy when that happened! Once at Crows Landing he slammed one on the deck by the mirror and off came the canopy.You should have heard the "chicken scratches" coming over the air waves then! I deduced he was headed back to Moffet and got the runway cleared and continued with the rest of the session.That was only one of several canopy's he lost while going thru the RAG.Now it came graduation time and the carrier quals were over and it was party time at the club.In those days if you forgot to put the tailhook down you owed the LSO a bottle.Since that was me I always had enough to have a rather good ole happy hour and then some when the guys were leaving the RAG. For Ted, and I am sure Blackie Hill will remember this, we got six of his new boys to act as Pall Bearers and in they marched to the funeral dirge carrying a new F8 canopy that we presented to Big Daddy. One hell of a stick man and I will never forget him.
Ace Jewell

528.
I first met Ted Dankworth when he as CO VF-142 and I was a nugget in VA-144. CAG-14 had a very active bachelor contingent running around Miramar. I recall traveling down the hill into La Jolla after NKX happy hours with Tom Scott and others. That was a memorable year for me.

Blackie Hill's recollection of a Ted's swim off the Officer's Boat is a little different than mine, but 46 years can make the memories a bit hazy at best. As a squadron JO, I had the honor of being a Boat Officer that particular night. It seems to me we were anchored out that night in Osaka harbor with the water being chopping with wind and rain. Ted and his Mah Jong buddy, Gordon Hodson (CO VA-146), want fresh air and weren't about hearing any JO's request they go below.

The next thing I knew there was a "Man Overboard" call and Ted is no longer on deck. Blackie says Ted was going to swim back to the ship and had to be coaxed back aboard. I remember it was a case of Ted wanting to retrieve his bowler and walking stick. I guess it was his desire to be the perfectly attired English gentleman. Whatever the case, Ted swore Hodson pushed him over the side for some unknown reason.

Later in 1968 I was on Bonnie Dick as the CVG-5 VF LSO. During a Subic inport period, I flew the Cubi C-45 to Clark for a few loads of flight attendants to liven up a Saturday night air wing party. Had to talk like a Dutch uncle to get NAS Ops to fly it, but I was still current from flying VX-5's logistic flights between Lemoore and China Lake. Again the perfect gentleman Ted graciously invited several of the ladies to lunch in his inport cabin. Even 8 years later he still swore Hodson pushed him that memorable night.

Ted might have been a great VF CO, but as CO Bonnie Dick, he was outstanding and had the respect of all who served under him. I for one proudly throw my nickel.
Bill Turlay

529.
I remember the incident that Dave Winiker tells about in VF 154 with some slight adjustments.
It was fall of 1957 and I'm virtually certain that the Nurse was an AJ "Savage" - my impression is that, if that thing ever got up over 160 knots or so the wings would flap and it would lay an egg. I think I even have an inflight snapshot of a nose up / wing down Crusader desperately trying to get a sip while sloshing around back there in the propwash and exhaust fumes. As I recall, we tried this a couple of times, gave it up as a really really bad deal, and never saw a tanker again much less a Savage on the '58 deployment. It made for some thirsty times.

So here's my add to Dwinky's tale The protagonist is young Ensign Saintly, a baby faced, chubby, late replacement chump who has been thrown into an F8 for a couple of fam hops and now that he's fully up to speed he's going out to try a bit of inflight refueling - which of course nobody in Wespac has ever done before but it makes no never mind to young Saintly that he's about the third person in US history to try this stunt he doesn't know dick anyway. Saintly goes out, gets behind the Savage, stalls out, gets into a flat spin maybe even inverted and wisely decides to part company with his balky steed. This all works out fine (except for the brand new gator) and Saintly lands somewhere in the California coastal wilds, drags his chute around for a while, finds Hwy 1 and ends up in a phone booth calling 154 collect. Meanwhile I'm back in the 154 ready room in Hangar 1 at Moffett. I'm briefing for some heavy acey-deucy ops when the Duty Officer's phone rings and, after his crisp greeting, he looks around like he saw a ghost and goes into a mumbling huddle with the phone up real close and personal. I figure something really awful has happened like his wife has finally met his girlfriend or something terrible like that. About that point, Skipper, Francis Xavier "Mad Monk" Timmes steams into view reading some stuff on a clipboard, growling & obviously on his way to gnaw on somebody's nether parts. I deftly ease away from the card table and hide behind the coffee maker from which vantage point I watch the gruesome details unfold. Timmes is pretty focused on the forthcoming evisceration but he spots the ashen face on the duty officer, his low quavering voice, the shaking phone hand FX smells blood the old man is uncanny he's just got this atavistic sixth sense that alerts him when a pooch has been screwed anywhere in within 6 counties.

In short it goes something like this:

FX to Duty Officer: "What's up mister?" (bad choice of verbiage.)
DO jumping to his feet & at rigid attention: "UH-um-uh ... it's Mr. Saintly on the phone..."
There's a beat while Timmes refocuses and glances instinctively up at the flight schedule.
FX: "No it's not Saintly he's flying!"
DO: "But..."
FX: "GIMME that phone."
DO slithers over and joins me behind the coffee machine.
FX: "WHO IS THIS?"
Saintly: "It's me Ensign Saintly sir..."
FX: "No it's NOT Saintly is flying! -- is this a JOKE?"
Saintly: "No sir, it's me sir and I'm out here in a phone booth at Half Moon Bay sir and I had to eject sir and I need a ride back sir."
..................
Well, it's like Joseph said to Mary "You're WHAT?" That one gets FX, I think for the first time in his life he's completely non-plussed. But not for long he realizes with horror that this jerk Saintly has just lost one of his beautiful brand new Crusaders. And FX has ridden a DC desk long enough to know that folks back in old foggy are going to be flappin' about this and he's gonna have some 'splainin to do. .....................

FX: "Mr. Saintly, where did you say you were?"

Saintly: "I'm not really sure sir but I think I'm maybe near ... Pescadero or somewhere ... and I'm really sorry about calling collect but don't have any money... an-and...could you maybe send the pick-up out to get me...?"

FX: "Take a hike son but be in my office at 0800 tomorrow."

I don't know how this all ended up because I never saw Saintly again after that - he's probably still out there.
Crash Miottel

530.
I came from the attack community (AD's)after active duty to the Navy reserve in Washington D.C. VF 661 became my new part time home in 1967 and after 25 hours as the instrument instructor in a Seastar they checked me out in the F-8A. My first flight is a story in itself but saved for another day as this concerns the dreaded spin. We had a free lance operation in those days and would often train in 4006 near Pax river aganist the DC Guard flying F-100's. It was during one of these wild fights after fighting a F-100 down to about 8000' that I witnessed a plume of smoke high above me. While watching this smoke rapidly descend in a corkscrew like manner the RT awoke with "Billy I think your in a spin" to which came the garbled reply "no *&^%&*". Both of us had leveled off in loose formation watching in fascination as the smoke train fell toward us with a F-8 beginning to appear ahead of the mist and looming ever larger above us. With this the spin slowed and stopped and
recovery was successful at about 17000' some 7000' above us. The culprit, or victim depending on your point of view, said everything was under control. Then one of the AF types said" We could never top that show so let's go home" which we all did. Fast forward to 1968 after our recall to active duty and move to NAS Cecil field. We were sort of the odd men out and at first only had only our sister squadron VF-662 to play with, many of whom were our fellow friends from Willow Grove. Again in a spirited fight with one of these F-8A drivers I was secured firmly on the tail about 30' behind my target climbing through 41000' or so when my senses begin to detect a very loose stick and a slow speed. I glanced at the AS indicator to confirm the sensations and looked up to see a clear sky ahead with only a whiff of smoke that I rapidly flew through. I let go of the stick and let the nose fall to regain some AS and rolled upside down to see what had happened to the fellow who I had
been following only to see a rapidly disappearing gyrating F-8 falling from the heavens toward mother earth. I wasn't the only one observing the sight and advice was coming over the radio with the hope this poor soul would heed it and recover in time to save all of us from a bad day. He did around 15000' and we all breathed a sigh of relief and headed back home. I had vowed never to get my self into a situation like that and never did. I admired both of these fellows for doing something I didn't think I could.
JC Black

531.
First I have to tell you a bit about my previous flight, so you will understand why I got myself into the mess I did. On 3 July 1969, 1640 Gulf of Tonkin time, I returned to the Tico from an ACM training flight as number three in a flight of three to J P O'Neill and Bill Moody. (We did a lot of training on that cruise, it was the only way to keep current, since there was little for us but BarCAPS) As number three, I broke well ahead of the ship, but still did a good "snappy" break. On the downwind with the gear down and the wing up and slowing to approach speed, I noticed that the aircraft was taking a lot of RWD trim. My first clue there was a real problem was when I hit the stop on RWD trim, with the aircraft now slowly rolling left. I added right stick - no effect. I added more - no effect. I added it all, with full right rudder - no effect. I checked the Roll and Yaw Stabs, no lights. I turned both off, with full right stick and rudder still engaged, no effect. I am now approaching 70-75 degrees angle of bank at about 450 AGL. I decided that if the aircraft wanted to do a dirty roll at that altitude, it could do it alone, and I punched out.

The next day, I am on a BarCAP with Ron Coalson. We are at about 24K, as I recall, and are approaching the southern end of the station and Red Crown gives us a turn to a north easterly heading, back toward Aw Shit Island. I am in Combat Spread to the right of Ron, waiting to see which way he will turn, when he comes up on the radio and says "Superheats, push 'em up". I duly added full military and noted that he was descending slightly and matched him, still waiting for the turn. At about 450 KIAS and 22K, Ron's nose starts to come back up and I match it, still wings level waiting for a turn. Ron's nose is coming WAY up, and fast! About 30 degrees nose up, it dawns on me what he intends, and, thinking to myself "No way!" (We are in J's), I lit the burner. But even then it was too late for it to be effective, the aircraft was rapidly losing airspeed. Coming through the vertical I knew that getting over the top was not going to happen at much more than 0 airspeed and I deselected the burner and started easing the stick forward, planning to 0 G it over the top. Everything was fine and dandy, I had 0 airspeed and 0 G but it was OK, the airplane is floating nicely, beautifull blue sky in front. Then the horizon came into view, upside down of course .......and the aircraft was gently rolling to the left - at exactly the same rate as the day before! My reaction was instinctive, instantaneous and incredibly stupid: full right stick and full right rudder! Well, it was off to the races! For anyone who has not experienced it, it is difficult to really make clear just how wild the ride is. Violent is not a sufficient description! If you ever had one of those rubber balls attached to a ping pong paddle by a rubber band, I felt like the rubber ball! I spent the first few turns chasing the stick, which had come out of my hand, around the cockpit. Now the stick wasn't really moving much, I was, like the rubber ball, or Russ Bortnem's rag doll being shaken by a dog. The nose was up - 10-15 degs high, the nose was down -60-70 degs low, the wings rolled left, the wings rolled right - in what seemed like equal amounts. The only positive at that point was that it had rolled right side up. "Direction of rotation can easily be determined by observing the traverse of terrain over the nose..." Whoever wrote that never spun a Crusader, I am convinced! I knew which way I must be spinning, and I could not tell from looking outside, or inside for that matter, since the turn needle was oscillating in both directions. Finally, though, I got hold of the stick and "blew it" for the second time: I neutralised the ailerons - that isn't actually too hard, the artificial feel system pretty much does it for you - and pushed the stick full forward. I don't remember what exactly I did with the rudder at that point. I never even thought about the droop, so I didn't blow that, other than procedurally, but I did think "I am not punching out of two airplanes in two hops!" I held the stick full forward and vaguely recall pushing the rudder in each direction, since it did not seem to have any effect held to the left. Suddenly it just came out, all by itself, pointed all but straight down. Speed was increasing pretty rapidly and I started the pull out, gingerly at first, but then with more oomph, though it was quickly obvious that altitude was not going to be a problem. I bottomed out about 5,000 and, once the nose was above the horizon, started a turn to the heading Red Crown had given. About then Red Crown came up and said "Uh, Superheats, I show you separated by about 5 miles, everything OK out there?" I replied that I was climbing through 6,000 having just recovered from a spin and asked for a join-up vector. Coalson said nothing at that point, seems he was laughing too hard. Having not blown the droop, raised the wing or done anything else out of the ordinary - I think the G meter only had about 4 or 5 positive on it, and that was probably from the pull-out, I had expected it to be pegged - I continued the flight, with only my ego slightly damaged. Having spun it and gotten away with it, and not at all sure if anything I did contributed positively to the recovery, I never had any inclination to try it again. Until now! Having read all these spin reports, I am convinced that it matters little what you do - I did virtually everything wrong and got out - if you have enough altitude on entry, the ariplane will eventually recover by itself. The published NATOPS recovery procedures make no sense to me at all. I almost think the initial procedures would exacerbate the spin: full aft stick? Isn't too much aft stick often what got you into it in the first place? Full aileron into the spin? If it wasn't the aft stick, wasn't it the ailerons (sure was for me!) I'd really love to go test that theory, anybody got a Crusader I can fly? (He said bravely, in the sure and certain knowledge of negative response!)
Tom Weinel

532.
More fun and games with the F8 Crusader !! What a great airplane !!! One of the first, if not THE first, guys to take off with the wings folded was Jack Barnes, good friend and fellow member of VF-11, the Red Rippers. Jack took off from Naples, Italy to fly out to the ship. He dumped all his wing fuel and burned out the aft cluster fuel tanks to lighten up, and landed without further incident. Had to hold a lot of forward stick on landing, the center of lift had moved well forward of the CG since the folding parts of the swept wing were providing no lift. Minimal damage. The aircraft was flown out to the ship two or three days later. When Jack got back to the ship the Air Group commander called him to his office and asked for his wings. Jack was dumbfounded, but CAG merely had the ship's machine shop cut off the ends of his wings and weld them back in a 90 degree up (folded) position and required Jack to, "Wear these wings while you are still in my Air Group !!", then congratulated him on his superior airmanship. Jack was indeed a great fighter pilot and I would have flown with him anywhere.

Art Hedberg

533.
Some time in early `63 I was in an F8E with my wingman, an air force exchange pilot. We jumped a couple of 104s. They were Phoenix Guard boys. Don`t know what models they were flying, bur were equipped with wing tanks. We pulled in behind them, showed our bellys so they would know we were pulling lead on them.They tried to turn with us...it was pitiful...the 104s were yawing back and forth. We managed to split them up...the one I was chasing stroked the burner and tried to run away...I lit the burner, pulled up on his wing with the speedbrakes about halfway out. I have always wondered just how much difference a clean 104 would be, but never had another chance. The F 104 might have been a good interceptor, but it sure wasn`t a dogfighter...
Cliff J. Judkins

534.
In the Spring of '62 my Skipper George Winslow advised me that we would be flying weekend cross countries for the next several weekends.

We launched from NAS Cecil and flew over Cuba at around 25,000 feet as best as I can recall. When he signaled, I was to turn on my cameras. We then landed at Homestead and crews that I had never seen before unloaded the film. We did this for several weekends and George cautioned me not to discuss the flights. I had left the squadron before the "Sheet had hit the Fan". Until then I had no clue as to what was up. There was never any indication that we had been detected much less shot at!

I assume that the missions continued but with someone else. Bill Eckerwas XO, Charlie Price was Ops. They might have more info on these early clandestine flights.
PJ Smith

535.
The time was 1959, at MCAS El Toro, Ca. At every happy hour the F4D and F8U pilots would argue for their respective airplanes. One day we decided to have a contest to see who could climb to 10,000 and then on into the contrails the fastest. I won , but cheated to do so. The F4D had a better T/W ratio and should have won! The story. We had ops launch a plane early in the day to determine the exact levels of the contrails. The F-8 was loaded with just enough fuel to make it up and then glide back on fumes for landing, and also enough fuel to simulate a contrail by dumping about 4000 feet below the real level. Well, we lined up on parallel runways at El Toro MCAS. I said I would count to Thousand l, 2,3, GO, for the start. Agreed. Well, I knew that it took about that time for the burner to cut in after selection and knew also from flying the F4D a lot in test work, that its T/W was so high that one could only bring the power up to about 90% basic engine or the plane would skid with brakes held. As I started my count I selected burner on the F8. At GO(3 sec) the burner cut in, and the F4D released brakes with me, added full power, selected burner, but was quite a bit behind me on the roll. The pilot, an experienced F4D pilot, made a classic mistake. I held the plane on the deck to best climb speed, but he pulled it off early and, with that big planform wing, obviously had a lot of drag. I beat him easily to 10,000, and then as he started to catch up I zoomed and dumped fuel about 29,000 as we approached 33,000 con level and zoomed and zero g'ed over the top!

From the ground it looked like I also beat him into the contrails, but we were really just about even at the real contrail level. Well that settled the bar talk. Always felt bad about cheating but "WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING--ITS THE ONLY THING" Wasn't flying the F8 a blast. !!!
ANON

536.
"The original wing incidence actuator and wing downlock proved to be inadequate and required redesign after the Crusaders first entered service. Directional stability at high speed, admittedly higher than Vought expected to achieve, was inadequate and required placarding the airplane to a lower speed than it was capable of."

NASA did some flight test and apparently discovered that the original system design was allowing the side away from the actuator to lift in high-G maneuvers. From: http://hometown.aol.com/GRC6431/myhomepage/

After Bob made the next test flight and the camera data was reviewed, the 4g turns still resulted in the 1/2-inch deflection on one side, BUT, there was almost 2-inches of deflection on the other side (side of the second camera), which indicated a high twisting load that no one, including the manufacturer nor the Navy, had anticipated. A limit of 4gs was placed on the aircraft and a modification was made to all of the F8Us. That modification was to install an additional wing down lock on the side that moved 2 inches. Originally there was only one lock down and that was on the side of the wing actuator.

My impression is that the wing was lifted by only one actuator but I don't know what the downlock was. Was there one on each side?

Was there an early crash with the wing coming off? There was at least one but I think it was much later than the fix and involved an overload in an overenthusiastic arrival. There where three structural failures early in the development program (two of them by Vought pilots while showing off) but they don't seem to have been tied to the variable incidence wing itself:

"F8U development was not without tragedy and difficulty, however. In February 1956 Vought test pilot Harry Brackett was killed when the first XF8U-1, BuNo 138899, disintegrated during a high speed pass at an air show at MCAS Mohave near Edwards AFB. The cause was attributed to an aileron hinge failure. In May, Marine Corps Marine Corps Major James Feliton ejected from BuNo 141337 near Greenville, Texas. While checking the yaw stabilization when rolling from a left 60-degree bank to a right bank at 500 knots as part of a Navy Preliminary Evaluation, he inadvertently engaged the cruise droop of the leading edges flaps, leading to a PIO and disintegration of the airplane. He ejected successfully just as the Crusader came apart.
A year later, in June 1957, Vought pilot James P. Buckner killed when his F8U disintegrated when he pulled up after making a high-speed pass during a flight demonstration at the Vought plant. The cause was determined to be the interaction of the mechanical pitch control system and flexibility of the long slim fuselage. Buckner¢s pitch input to pull up was amplified and resulted in exceeding the structural limit. The fix was a simple modification to the pitch control run so that fuselage bending was not destabilizing."
Comments and corrections would be very welcome,

Tommy Thomason (writing a book on supersonic fighters including the Crusader)
tommythomason@sbcglobal.net

537.
Jerry 'Turkey' Tucker was with the Blue Angels during the last years of the F4's then stayed on for the first two years of the A4. During Viet Nam he flew F8U's. He's now a senior Captain for Southwest. Here's his incredible true story of falling off a carrier while inside his aircraft.
yikes
It wasn't just all fun and great looking chicks!
Another combat day in Viet Nam and Turkey was waiting to be launched. There was a problem with the aircraft in front of him, so they pulled it off the cat and put Turkey in his place. He wound it up, gave the salute and waited for the launch. He felt it start to go . . then nothing. His aircraft was moving down the deck . but no acceleration. He pulled the power and was on the brakes . shut it down . . then found himself teetering over the leading edge of the flight deck. He felt the Crusader rocking with each movement of the ship as he talked to the Air Boss. Air Boss told him to stay in the cockpit . . that they were trying to hook his aircraft to a tug . . and that several sailors were trying to hold his tail down to change his tilting aircraft's center of gravity until it was safely hooked up.
The ship rocked with another swell. And over he went, falling down toward the water below. As it fell, the aircraft rolled on its side. Turkey recalls that he could now see the ship's bow plowing through the water. He didn't know which was worse . . seeing the water coming up at him . or seeing the carrier slicing through the water toward him. When he'd been teetering over the bow, he'd thought of ejecting. However, he was worried about being run over by the ship. But now he was in the water and he felt sick as the bow of the carrier hit his F8U. He was sure he was a member of the living dead. And was just along for the ride.
He remembers the hit, and the terrible 'snap' as the ships bow broke his aircraft in two, just behind his cockpit. Turkey now realized that he was still alive and that he was sealed inside the Crusader's cockpit module. The water was so clear and he could see all of the ship's bottom as he was bounced and bobbed along. He remembers every bob and hit along the ship's bottom as chunks of his cockpit's plexiglas were gouged out by the barnacles on the carrier's hull.
He was thinking he might come out of this alive, as fear struck him again when he saw the ship's screws spinning like hell. And he was heading straight for them. The sound of the screws was terrifying. He now visualized being chewed up as he felt a sudden surge of speed bringing him closer closer to the screws . . knowing he was being sucked into the vortex created by them. He continued accelerating and watched in horror as he passed through the screws themselves. Miraculously, he was unharmed.
Disoriented and rolling violently in the screws wake, he suddenly saw the sun and noticed he was bobbing on the ocean's surface. He said his heart rate was so fast he could feel his heart thumping in his chest. He tried to do so something to get out but he couldn't control his shaking hands. He tried several times to blow the canopy but didn't have the hand coordination needed. Until his third try.
He blew the canopy and immediately realized he'd made a mistake as the cockpit capsule filled with water. Then sank. Going down fast. About 35 to 40 feet beneath the surface, he extracted himself from the cockpit. When he got to the surface he was greeted by a helicopter and a rescue swimmer who jumped out of the helicopter to save him. During the helicopter ride, Turkey said he couldn't thank GOD enough . . and praised the Lord all the way back to the ship.
They got him on the ship and to the Doc. And Turkey recalls a comical but serious moment when the first thing that came out of his mouth was: " You can bet your sweet ass that next time I won't blow that f___ canopy! ". Like one day all of this might happen to him again, right?

538.
Both USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63) and USS Constellation (CVA-64) 'operated' U-2's during the 1966/1967 time frame off the coast of Viet
Nam.

The so-called 'ops' were limited to removal of all cross deck pendants, stowage of the through deck sheaves for a flush deck and lowering the leaf springs that held the a/g wires off the deck. This was to prevent any damage to the landing gear or gear doors of the U-2.
The U-2's were kind of a hybrid B/C model with a sugar scoop trailing aft of the fuselage Below the tailpipe, presumably for I/R signature reduction.

In addition, an artificial centerline was painted from the fantail forward that more correctly aligned with longitudinal axis c/l of the ship.

The U-2 would be waved aboard by an LSO (at least on KH), similar to the old days of pre-mirror, pre-Fresnel lens.

Two red shirts (typically Marines) would be waiting for the aircraft to land then would balance the wing tip skids and walk the aircraft forward under power. During this time, the engine was still running and the pilot did not egress.

Someone from IOIC (Integrated Operational Intelligence Center) would up come to the flight deck with new sensor packs or camera magazines? to where the aircraft was waiting, download the 'used' units and replace them with the new ones.

One of the Cat officers, typically LT Sommers, if I remember correctly would give the two finger turn up to the U-2 driver, receive a highball then the red shirt would run along supporting one wing tip until the aircraft reached minimum flying speed and off she would go at a high alpha, at least for those days.

It was quite a sight to see.....

LCdr Val Valentine, USNR (ret)
VF-111/213/114

539.
The year was 1959. It was MCAS El Toro, California and VMF 334 was the first West Coast squadron to fly the Chance Vought F8U-l Crusader. Because of the hard luck the Navy had with the Ensign Killer F7U Cutlass built by the same firm, the Crusader was called "Vought's last Chance!" By the way, Prince Hal also flew fifty hours of test at Pax River on the Cutlass. Hal's comments were, "The F7U-3M was a dog! Seemed like there was a failure or an emergency on nearly every test flight." Whereas the Crusader proved to be outstanding in both air to air and air to ground combat operations.
Marine Captains Hal Vincent and Bob Norton were best friends and pilots in VMF-334. They applied for a Cross Country Flight to Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, Alabama to visit Colonel Marion Carl, who was there with his wife while attending the top level Air Force Command School. Hal Vincent knew Colonel Marion Carl from his visits to Pax River and his interest in the Test Pilot work at NAS Patuxent River, MD Flight Test, where Hal had the original test project on the YF8U-1 airplane. Marion Carl worked Flight Test at Pax River out of the same Test Office on two separate previous tours. Bob Norton knew Marion Carl when he was his Marine Air Group 33 Commander at El Toro prior to going to Maxwell and had done well dog fighting against Carl in the Cougar aircraft.

The pilots briefed the route of flight, checked the weather and took off on their cross country with a planned refueling stop at Navy Dallas. Approaching Dallas, the stalwart pilots determined that they might have enough fuel to make it to Montgomery. With some divert fields between Dallas and Montgomery, they decided to press on. Every few minutes the pilots would recheck their fuel levels. When Norton's Crusader indicated lower on fuel than Vincent's Crusader, the lead was passed to him. As they approached the let down point for a maximum range/minimum fuel descent, Hal retook the lead and they proceeded to land safely at Maxwell Air Base with about 400 lbs of fuel in each aircraft. After the cross country pilots checked into the Bachelor Officer Quarters, Edna Carl called and said, "You are invited to dinner with us at the Air Force Club and to a dance there afterward."
Captain Bob Norton had forgotten his dress shoes and went to the club and the dance in his flight boots. Hal and Bob met Colonel and Mrs. Carl at the club for a nice dinner with lots of shooting of wristwatches and rehashing past flying episodes. Then the music started. "Mister nice guy, Bob Norton, was asked for a dance by Edna. Bob showed her his boots, but Edna, who was an absolutely beautiful and lovely lady, insisted on dancing with Bob--boots and all." Relates Hal.
Later in the evening Colonel Carl, who had never flown the Crusader, asked if he could fly Prince Hal's F8 the next morning. What could Hal say to this famous Marine Aviator but "Yes Sir."
Weather the next morning turned out to be overcast, about 700 feet, and 2 miles in mist/rain. It was certainly not a normal Familiarization Flight kind of day. But Marion Carl would not have been a normal Fam pilot in any aircraft. Captain Vincent showed Colonel Carl how to start. Colonel Carl told Hal to sit by the radio in Base Operations in case any questions needed an answer during the flight. Colonel Carl boomed the afterburner and roared down the runway on a great takeoff, transitioned the wing to the fuselage, locked it and got the gear up before disappearing into the goo. There was no radio call for some 45 minutes. Finally, Hal became concerned and asked on the radio, "Colonel Carl, how are things going?".
Colonel Carl answered, "Everything is fine. I'm on the way back."
Hal recalls the Crusader recovery, "By then a majority of the Air Force pilots on the base and from the school had heard about this hot shot, well known Marine pilot and his flight in the new and high performance F8 Crusader jet. They were hanging out of the windows, standing under umbrellas, sitting in cars--all waiting for the crash. Well, Marion Carl broke out about 700 feet, made a high speed dash down the runway, a screaming 6 g break, and a turn downwind for a perfect landing. The early F8 had no angle of attack and Marion did as briefed, in that, he used his gunsight with 120 mils on the horizon for the perfect touch down attitude. Bob Norton and I were quite proud of Marion Carl; as a pilot, as a personal friend, and as a Marine."

540.
In the 60's 6 pilots were qualified aboard the USS RANGER.Seems the Government wanted them to be able to land on carriers if need be.The reason given was that they were Submarine Hunters? That was in case anyone asked.Believe me it was a weird sort of experience and very classified at the time.Hope I don't get my A-- in a sling for telling you this but I feel time has passed and it is no longer Classified?The thing could damn near hover over the deck.The tail hooks were enclosed in a plastic cover when flying out and when the hook was lowered at the ship the weight of the hook tore off the cover and down it came.They reset it after each landing.Five of the pilots were ex Air force Jocks one Navy type .Piece of cake.
Regards ACE Jewell

541.
I know of only one F8 pilot, Frank Harrington, to successfully eject out of an F8 in that condition of a nose over after loss of both PC1 and PC2. Here is my recollection of that event. Frank was hit in the aft section by AAA fire which knocked out both PCs while he was pulling up from a run on a target next to the beach line. Fortunately he was headed out to sea as he was gaining altitude when his PCs bled down causing a vertical porposing motion. Trying to get distance from the beach he stayed with it too long and was forced up from the seat by the negative G load. He could no longer reach the alternate handle as he was jammed into the canopy well off the seat cushion. By then he said he could no longer see any sky at all, only ocean, which meant he was past the vertical. Frank was so crammed into the canopy that he could see the face curtain handle under his arm. He grabbed the handle and jerked it out firing the seat. The next thing he remembered was sinking into the cold ocean and tried to find the preserver toggle handles. His flight gear was so messed up from the wind blast that he had to paddle up to the surface gulp in some air then sink beneath the surface trying to find them. After about the third trip he finally grabbed one and fired the CO2 bottle. He then started to untangle himself from all the parachute shroud lines. A helo soon picked him up. At the next APM, I brought out his flight gear to show everybody what it looked like. His boots had groves in the steel toes so deep from hitting the canopy bow on ejection that I doubt anybody could hit them that hard with an ax. I said 'this is why you wear steel toe boots flying the F8, any questions?"

That was his second ejection from a Crusader. Unfortunately Frank was later killed in an unsuccessful ejection from a Crusader on takeoff from Okinawa on a refueling stop on his way to Japan, his third and final ejection. Vought finally put in some internal hooks to catch the UHT about the 0 datum line to stop those negative G nose overs, the fix did give one a chance to find a good spot to eject.
Dudley Moore

542.
I was in a group of FRP's of all ages and stripes who finished VF-124 in June of 1959 and joined 142 at Miramar at the completion of it's first Crusader cruise on Ranger. "Big Daddy" Dankworth was leader of this replacement contingent and he relieved Tom Mix as C.O. There were only 4 hold-overs from 142's original F8 roster, Dick Peterson, Max Bailey, Moose Myers,and Ron Evans. The new guys included Big Daddy, [F8 carrier suitablity experience from Pax], Clyde Schindler, XO {VF-124 perm], Dee Butler, Bob Loomis, Ken Baldry, George Zimmer, myself, Charlie Peck, Blackie Hill, Tom Scott, Jimmie W. Taylor, Roger Kirkman, Mike "Boy Aviator" Denham,and Lou Stacy. Lou went through the RAG with us but had eye problems and was given a designator change but was allowed to go with us to the squadron as a ground officer. I believe these are in napkin number order. We knew each other pretty wellsince most of us were about a year in the RAG, flying F9f-8's or FJ-3's while awaiting our F8U class. Moffett was a booming place then, with VA-125 in the same hangar with a large contingent of A-4 FRPs. VF-124 also had the instrument training unit with F9F8T's, so there were lots of guys and great Happy Hours! Some of the 124 instructors I remember are the CO, F.X. Timmes [he chased me on my Fam 1], Whitey Varner, Bob Burlingame, Bill Russell, Smoke Bennett, Hank Hancock, Derick Wilson, Bruce Morehouse, Dick Murdock, George Atchison , Emil Thompson, Connie Ward, Bill Polleys, Fred Blakeman [our class leader], and the one with the most precise command of the variations of the English language, our LSO, Ace Jewell. Our contact with Ace was pretty intensive [23 FCLP periods in my logbook], and we spent a lot of time at Crow's Landing. And of course we all mastered Bill Russell's aeodynamics class. I still have my complete couse notebook!

We did all the normal stuff fairly successfully, but we did lose one of our class, Lt. Guy McElroy, in a tragic mishap while CQing on Midway. He bingoed with a stuck throttle [about 85%] tried to land at Moffett by shutting off the fuel master [presumed] and ended up in the mudflats north of the runway. No chance once he was committed, since there was no low altitude escape capability. Of course at the time nobody knew how long the engine would run at that RPM. It would go about 50 seconds at idle [just long enought to get the starting probe out and the NC5 unplugged] if you started the a/c with the eng master off. I know.

The year at Moffett was broken up by a couple of weeks of winter gunnery at Fallon under the direction of Smoke Bennett. It was great flying and especially fun when combined with the opportunity to do some "real" gambling at Ma'sand in Reno. First time for many of us.

Our arrival at Miramar in July 1959 began what was to become the most enjoyable and memorable squadron tour in my career. As we got settled into our spaces at Miramar,from the perception of this nugget, we were suddenly transformed from a gaggle of guys into an actual military organization, where everybody had a job and a title, there was a chain of command, and responibilities other than briefing and flying. Our squadron spaces were part of a group of wooden WWII vintage buildings east of the tower which were assigned to Cag 14 units. Each squadron had an admin building which included the ready room with locker area, offices for all except Maint dept, SDO bunkroom and a couple of fat oil-burning stoves for heat in the winter. Along the edge of the flight line were the maintenance spaces, with a nose hangar and shop spaces. The whole area around the admin buildings was covered with crushed gravel, and you could walk from the street directly to the flight line without interruption since there were no security fences. Pretty Spartan digs

When Big Daddy addressed us at our first APM we got his philosophy on flying the Crusader the way it should/could be flown. Our training, particularly ACM, would be a systematic step-by-step progression from basic manuevering to 1v1, 2v1 and 2v2, with everybody starting at the beginning. Our Ops/training guys got all the lastest stuff available, energy/maneuverability, etc. and all the Nellis info, and there was much discussion before and after flights about who thought what worked best, etc. We were organized tactically into 3-plane flights employing a "Flex three" doctrine devised by the previous XO, Chuck Deasy. I lucked out and was teamed with Moose and Ron. This was neat for training because we could take turns as section lead, wingman and aggressor on each flight. Combat spread was automatic and as we progressed everybody got pretty proficient in the whole flight envelope and how to employ the F8. It would get pretty intense at times, but all got to fly with everybody. I believe a testimonial to the way "Big Daddy" led us is the fact that we never had a spin in the squadron or among the group that I started with in the 4 years that many of us flew together, and we did take the bird to extremes. I felt confident that because of the insructional methods used each one of us got to recognize the critical points in an aerial scrap: Where you could win, when to get out, and just how far you could presswithout getting had. Judicious use of burner was a big factor, because no matter how well youwere doing, if you ran out of gas you lost. Not everbody would be "TopGun", but the level of competence, and particularly confidence, across the board was well above the norm. No weak sisters. It should be understood here that we didn't "invent" anything, but we did emphasize the role of the wingman as being a second unit and not some guy trying to fly wing on the leader through an engagement.

"Big Daddy" and his wife, June, "the Italian Flamethrower'' took a house in Coronado with their three kids. We became a pretty socially active squadron, with frequent parties. We bachelors quite often hit the Mex Village, where we would find the Dankworths and Baileys in the back bar and an impromptu party would ensue. "Big Daddy" had his domestic side also. He bought a sewing machine for Junie and when she didn't respond the way he expected, he took the sewing lessons and turned out curtains and clothes!

Through the fall of '59 and winter of '60 we were busy with compexes, work-ups on the Oriskany, and gunnery at Yuma. We deployed on Oriskany in mid-May and underwent ORI at Hawaii, where we spent a fair amount of time at Barber's because of lack of wind. This allowed us to spend an H Hour with Smoke Bennett, who was then attached there as Ops. Trucking on to WestPac we operated off Okinawa and Japan. We shared RR#1 with VF-141, our Demon squadron, and had a wonderful rapport with them, operating with one duty officer. We were blessed also with having the Flag spaces just forward, where ADM "Jumping Joe" Clifton presided. It was not uncommon for the Admiral to hang out in our readyroom, where he said it was "more interesting" and would send his orderly out to bring back cookies for us.

"Big Daddy" led us afloat and ashore. His charasmatic and fun-loving nature endeared him to all. His favorite liberty partner was Gorden Hodgson, VA-146 [FJ-4's] skipper. They went ashore in their black suits, bowler hats and umbrellas on the arm, and the ambiance wherever they went became infectiously fun. When the ship was in Yoko we had our birds at Atsugi and everybody got some flying and checked out the local funhouses like "Willies" and "Garden Greenspot" along with the hotsy bath and massage parlor at the BOQ. Of course there was always a large Happy Hour and dinner crowd at the "O" Club, where sometimes officer's wives were seen throwing dinner rolls. Pretty wild!

I roomed with Blackie Hill and Ron Evans in a larger room [4 bunks] on the O-2 level just inboard of the #1 cat machinery room. In fact my bunk was attached to the bulkhead that separated us from the machinery. It was a fairly noisy place with the engines at full power only a few feet awayand all of the violent sounds of each launch. We did have a door on our room, unlike the curtains that most all of the other rooms in our area had. I spent much of my time that summer finishing off thecorrespondence courses required for promotion to LT, some 20+ in all, and the day after I put my last assignment in the mail an ALNAV came out which dropped the requirement for these courses for promotion!

About 1/3 of the way through the cruise VF-142 became the first Crusader squadron to operate for an entire fiscal year without an accident, a real accomplishment in those days. Clyde Schindler trapped at the end of the last day of ops in June 1960 to nail the record down. Additionally wewon the AirPac "E" as the best fighter squadron. We did not let down but continued topursue our mission professionally and safely through the remainder of the cruise.

One of the highlights was our port visit to Hong Kong, where we all bought our tailor-madesuits and sport coats. Some of us took leave and stayed in a hotel about 3 miles up Nathan Road in Kowloon. Clyde Schindler, Schenck Remsen [VF-141], Tom Scott, Pat Henry, [VF-141], and Ilived like real tourists for a few days. Kowloon was filled with refugees from the mainlandand was not pretty in a lot of areas at the time. But we had fun.

During one of our later visits to Yoko, Ron Evans and I threw a wetting-down party at the New Kanko Hotel.We had the top floor with music, food and hostesses for a whole gaggle of squadron/airgroup types. A wonderful time was had by all. Later, over Thanksgiving weekend, Clyde, Schenck and I borrowed a station wagon from a fellow at Atsugi, and together with a Japanese civilian employeeas a guide, took off into central Honshu west of Tokyo on a duck-hunting trip. We stayed in little villages where it was clear no one had seen an American in years. Miles and miles of great hunting terrain, shooting over live decoys, and the white-knuckled experience of riding with Schenck on the wrong side of the road in local traffic.

Our cruise ended just before Christmas in 1960, and by the time we got back many had transfer orders, and by mid-January all department heads and above were gone as well as our four holdovers from the original 142, Max Bailey, Dick Peterson, Moose Myers and Ron Evans.A brand new cadre from 124 showed up and we were off and running again under the leadership of Jack Stetson and Herk Camp. The next 18 months may be chronicled later, since copious memorable events ocurred.

I only saw "Big Daddy" a few times after he departed 142. I was at Miramar instructing in VF-121 in about 1968 when he came through San Diego enroute to take over Bonnie Dick. I met him at a party at Dee Butler's house and drove him back to Noris BOQ at about 0100. He had a flight out at 0700 for Hickam. I was worried about his making the flight but figured he would handle it, which he obviously did.

This narrative was intended to give the reader some idea of how "Big Daddy" Dankworth operated, what his squadron accomplished and why we all thought the world of him. Some of what is presented here may appear to be extraneous, but it's there because the powerful memories beg to be related to someone who might just understand.

I last saw him at his house in Arlington in about 1983. He took me into his den and pointed to a plaque on the wall. I looked closely at it and saw what looked to be half of an aerosol can. He said, "That's a whipped cream can. The guys from VF-51 gave that to me in memory of the Calean "O" Club." He didn't have to say any more.

We all appreciate leaders who will set goals for their command then stand back and let the troops perform He operated that way . He did say to me at that time: "If I learned one thing in the Navy, it's that you cannot make your boss uncomfortable and still expect every success". There weren't many like him. I believe that every boss he had envied him.
John Holm

543.
As to it's performance, the forward fuselage of RF8 was "coke-bottled" back to the mid-fuselage area which improved it's performance -- it was a fantastic bird to fly. We were stationed in Guam in VCP-61 in 1959-61 and frequently flew flights of 3 F8U-1Ps to Japan or Okinawa from Guam -- and vice-versa -- about 1,.300 miles over water. On those flights we'd cruise climb to 46 to 48,000 ft and cruise at max-range. My memory is that we'd get down to less than 3,000 pph fuel flow and be cruising in the range of .93 to .95 mach. If we were flying between Guam and Okinawa there was a large reef (Scarborough?) about halfway, if not obscured by the ever-present cumulus clouds. We had no nav aids for the middle 1,000 or so miles. Between Guam and Japan there was Iwo Jima and my memory is that a mobile Tacan was finally set up there around late 1960. About half the time one of the two VW squadrons in Guam would provide us a Super Connie radar plane at the mid-point to track us via radio and to provide the "powers that be" information in case we had problems. In addition to significant jet winds at altitude (our navigation was strictly DR until we could pick up the destination Tacan), had we either had a failure/loss of oxygen or lost a canopy (we lost canopies in flight on seven aircraft while I was in the squadron), we'd have had to come down to lower altitude --and if that occurred during the first two hours of the flight, we would not have had the gas to make our destination). Those were interesting times!

Regards, Al Fancher

544.
National Museum of Naval Aviation RF-8 Restoration Project

The Museum is going to restore RF-8 Buno 146898 to add to the museum collection. This aircraft began its service as an F8U-1P on Feb. 26 1960 when delivered to the Navy at the LTV plant in Dallas. It was later redesignated as an RF-8A This aircraft made seven operational deployments and accumulated 7084 flying hours and 550 carrier landings. It began its Navy service with VCP-63 at NAS miramar on Mar 4 1960 and made its first deployment in October of that year with Detachment Lima aboard USS Lexington. The squadron was redesignated VFP-63 in 1961 and it deployed again aboard Lex with detachment Foxtrot that year. It deployed with Det Lima aboard Hancock in 1963. Combat service began with Det Mike aboard Ranger in August of 1964. Following that cruise, the RF-8A went back to LTV in Dallas as part of the first group of photobirds to undergo rework and designation as an RF-8G with uprated engine, ventral fins, and improved avionics. In Nov of 1965 it returned to Miramar and VFP-63. It returned to combat service in July of 1966 with Det Alpha aboard Coral Sea. In September of 1966, it was transferred to Det 42 of VFP-62 out of Cecil Field in Florida. The next service was with MARTD at NAS Dallas in June of 1970. Reserve service was continued with VFP-306 at Andrews AFB in Washington DC. There was a period of 10 months of service with VFP-63 at Miramar in 1975 and 1976 after which it returned to VFP-306 for the remainder of its service until Feb 24 1984 when it was retired from service.

The RF-8 was a great airplane and admired by its pilots. It was similar to the fighter version but there were significant differences. It had no missile rails and no guns. It carried a group of cameras which provided horizon to horizon coverage as well as a forward looking camera. They were controlled by a simple computer which controlled the cameras to provide clear sharp pictures when flying at 500 feet above the ground and at speeds in excess of 500 knots. It carried more fuel than the fighter versions and its clean configuration provided slightly higher speed and increased range. The squadrons provided detachments of 3 aircraft for all of the carriers and they paid a price during the Vietnam war. Of the 73 RF-8’s built, 31 were lost, with 12 fatalities, and 6 Prisoners of War.
Chuck Kluksmann

545.
While in VF 84, during their early years with the F8, circa 1959, our exchange pilot planned a trip to one of his old bases to impress the "locals" there with the F8, an so it was set into motion. We took off on a Saturday morning with me on his wing, section take off, since we wanted to look good on departure. Lead transitioned right after lift off, started to settle, and when I decided one of us was going to settle into the ground, I decided to step up on the lead rather than be the first one to hit the deck. Sure enough, lead settled into the ground. I saw aircraft skip on the ground once than the old Martin Baker seat fired and out came my leader. Chute blossomed, pendulum swing, and lead made contact with the ground with his seat pack. I watched this and the ensuing fireball in horror. . I climbed , dumped fuel, and landed as soon as cleared. I understand they gave the downed pilot "last rites" while there on the ground, but I am happy to say he survived, and other than being "sore" finished his tour with us. Needless to say, we didn't get a chance to impress his old squadron buddies at the cross country destination, but we sure impressed the locals.

Ray Slingerland VF-84 and VF-191

546.
Kent Billue was my room mate for two cruises, 64-66, in VF-24 on Hancock. He was a great carrier aviator. He did instruct in 124 in 66-67 before going to TPS. He was in carrier suitability and gave the F-8J an unsat for wave off performance. His boss told him to change it, that the airplane was going to the fleet. He refused, saying that he would not sign off on an airplane that was going to kill fleet aviators. He was sent to the school to teach and someone else gave the airplane an up.
Kent later went to VF-102, in F-4s, and then resigned and went to civlant. He has since passed away due to cancer. Kent was a very principled guy and did the right thing.
John "Frog" Allen

547.
> From 1956-58, the Navy bought 144 F8U-1P's, which became RF-8A's, then RF8G's. When the last > one was put in the boneyard, there were approximately 23 airframes left in existence. The rest > were either shot down or crashed.

The last F8 flying on active duty was an RF8. The last F8 flying with the reserves was an RF8. The last F8 flying in the US was an RF8 that was turned over to Rockwell to be used as a flying testbed for development of a supercritical wing. I can't verify it, but I was told that it is still up at Edwards.

The fist airplane to fly supersonic from coast to coast was an RF8. Flown by Major John Glenn. averaged a little over mach 1.1. That plane was supposed to go to the Smithsonian, but unfortunately, it now rests on the bottom of the SOuth China Sea.

VFP-62 is the only Navy squadron to receive the Presidential Unit Citation in peace time.

> From 1964 to 1973, 49 RF8 detachments flew off various carriers on Yankee station. That is the > equivalent of 12 - 12 plane squadrons in a nine year period. One det from VFP-62, and 2-3 dets > of Marines. The rest were from VFP-63.

The first POW of the conflict was not Alvarez, but Chuck Klusman from VFP-63. Shot down over Laos and spent about three months in the Laotian Hilton. Got tired of being on vacation and escaped in September 0f 1964. I was SDO at Miramar when we got word that he was out.

VFP-63 flew more combat sorties then any F8 squadron in the Navy. Then any F4 squadron in the Navy. Then any A3, A4, A5, A6, or A7 squadron in the navy.

With these sorties, come the losses. If you go out to the golf course at Miramar, there are 12 plaques that identify pilots from VFP-63 that did not return. Including 3/4 ths of one particular detachment.
Scott Ruby

548.
Read Adm Gilchrist's statement about his favorite Crusader and agree that the C was a great one, except for the lack of a radar altimeter and standby attitude instrument. I made three WestPac deployments in VF-24, Midway 63-64, Hancock 64-65 and 65-66, all in the C model. During the second deployment, we were operating with three ships, each using a 120 degree piece of the pie. On this memorable night, it required that we make approaches to the starboard bow, crossing over the ship dirty at 1200 feet and turning left downwind into the CCA pattern descending to 600 feet. As I rolled out downwind the attitude instrument said that I was wings level but the compass and the turn needle indicated that I was in a serious right turn. I took a look over my left shoulder at the ship and confirmed the right turn. I changed my scan to altimeter, ship, turn needle, and compass, and got the wings level, followed by a slightly high pitched call to the LSO, Lou Teboe, that I needed to get aboard on that pass because I did not want to bolter or wave off on needle, ball, with no ship in my scan. Sure was hard to get that malfunctioning attitude instrument out of my scan. Lou and I worked very hard and I got aboard on a white knuckler (I am sure I had a shot at all four wires). The C would have been an even better Gator if it had been equipped with a standby attitude instrument, or if we didn't have to fly it at night. As Devil Houston once told me, there are three things man shouldn't do, march sailors, fly F8Us off ships at night, and whistle when packing for a cross country.
Frog Allen

549.
If 144608 was the John Glenn aircraft, I watched it sink in the Gulf of Tonkin after Tom Scott's ramp strike. I watched from the LSO platform (didn't wave that pass thank goodness) as he went off the angle, he ejected, and the plane went into the water. It just kind of hung there on top of the water resting on its wings, seeming reluctant to go under, but finally did.

Track/ Half Track/ Wide Track/ Bubba Meyers

550.
You are correct. I can't vouch for the Buno however Tom did punch out of the record setting F8 flown by John Glenn.
Chuck Tinker

551.
I'll never forget my last ride in olde 144608, it just so happens it was on Fri. the 13th in Dec. 1972 at the blunt of the USS Oriskany. Still a wee bit shorter after the fact.
Regards,
Tom Scott
PS: Yes the plaque was polished on a regular basis.

552.

More on GTMO. In '64(?) Dean Beyer had a a/c turbine failure in the turtleback that cut the throttle cable. I think this was before we had a shutdown point on approach. He landed long missed the gear and ran off runway nine at speed. Dean wound up with a broken back. The plane wound up in shallow water requiring a road to be graded before we could recover the plane. By the time we could get a crane out ( less than a week) to pick her up every piece of magnesium had begun to return to the sea. There wasn't much usable to recover and I don't remember what was done with the wreckage. Note : An Airlant inspection team had just arrived for a visit. This really helps the old career.
Dick Bishop, 63-64

553.
NOTABLE DS STUFF Flew an F-8 under the Golden Gate Bridge, Flew an F-8 "inside" Mount Fuji (below the monastery on the inside of the volcano's rim), flew an F-8 inside the Grand Canyon, Won a Lake Tahoe speed boat contest (my entry was an F-8 at 500 kts 10 feet off the water and I got away without being ID"d.)
Bill Kogerman

554.
Is there anybody out there old enough to know when jet carrier landings started scaring the doo-doo out of the fledglings in the Training Command? What a/c used? What ship? Straight deck? What happened to #735?

Unbelievable that the troops that were out there with Panthers & Banshees landing on the straight decks had no prior jet carrier work -as they say, "Decks of wood – Men of iron" – hats off to them that's for sure!

Semper Fly,
Crash aka John Miottel

555.
I went through advanced flight training in the F6F Hellcat. What a wonderful aircraft. Enjoyed every minute of the flying. Later I carrier qualified on the USS Monterey off Pensacola. I had qualified earlier in the SNJ and this time in the F6F. Wings and Commission were on the same day. From there I went back to Corpus Christi for Instrument instruction in the SNB. From there to Beeville for jet training in the T-33 and the F-80. Yes, we had some single seat aircraft. Then I was assigned to VF-91 at NAS Alameda, Calif.
The squadron returned from Korea on the Phillipine Sea flying F9F-2's. We got new F9F-6s (Cougars) and were checked out by a briefing and let's go.
S.W. Hubb

556.
I know I'm not the only one, but every one of my carrier landings was in the 'sader. Before we were qualed in basic, the boat left for some kind of overhaul. That was in April or so, 1958. Before we were to qual in advanced, the boat ran for deep water under threat of a hit by a hurricane. The Training Command was so backed up, that they gave us our wings and commissions and sent us to the fleet (October 1958). Think of that; Naval Aviators without benefit of any carrier landings !!
In early '59 we finally busted our cherries on the Midway out of Alameda. All the rest of my landings were in VF-142 and VF-132.

Anchors Aweigh ! Mike Denham

557.
I can't say what happened prior to 1959, but in 1959 I carrier qualified in the jet trainer T2V on the CVA-36 Antietam (No mirror, just Paddles). We were told that we were the first class to do so, but I can't confirm that. In 1959, CVA-36 was homeported in Pensacola, right after the channel was deepened to permit her passage to her mooring. After that it was F9F's and F-11's for me until I arrived at MCAS El Toro for fighter time in the F8U's.
Bill Kogerman

558.
I remember my 6th flight in F8 ,it was acrobatic,, my first loop was perfecto!! I asked my instructor could if I might repeat perfection.

On my second ride I departed on top and F8 went its way. My flight leader rolled over and thought that we just lost another F8 and headed back to Cecil to make "Happy Hour"!

At the point of departure I sat on my hands as "Doc Townsend " had instructed. As the bird continued to oscillate I watched the altitude decrease. And then the bird stopped rotating, tucked under and headed for the sea below. I gently applied backpressure and recovered and headed back to Cecil Field arriving at approximately the same time as my instructor.

Instructor and I signed in line shack as if nothing unusual had occurred. He was a WWII Vet who had been shot at and hit so this was no big deal! I was impressed by his coolness. I think he still lives near NAS JAX.

The point of this response is that the pilots who ushered in this first supersonic carrier fighter had good vision. The Crusader was not an easy bird to fly. In fact it was so friction free that even in the landing configuration more drag was needed. To be addressed later!

Of the early pilots who flew the F8 many had flown the "Gutless Cutlass".

Bottom line is whereas Billy and Jack's leadership styles might be questioned, I submit that there were many pilots who accepted that the bird was too much for them and are still alive in the civilian world today.

And as promised I will address the more drag needed in landing configuration problem. As we all remember the approach speed of the F8 was high. When the French bought the BLC for their birds the US Navy took notice. Jimmy Flatley flew the F8E(FN) acceptance flights and noted that the slower approach speeds were very nice. I will not divulge the name of the NAVAIR class desk officer who who pushed to get the BLC added to US Navy birds. At the time it was a good move. However, along came warfighting time(Vietnam) and many pounds of ECM gear was quickly added to the F8. All of these pounds were up front creating a very upfront cg problem. What started out as a good fix ended up as the F8J.

However, as some of you may remember one of Vought's very talented engineers offered a stick maneuver which would work under normal conditions but since most carrier approaches were not normal it did not go over well during wartime.

During the development of the BLC Vought lost an F8 configured with BLC. Pilot was demonstrating approach speeds at low altitude when the bird departed. Pilot punched out and F8 recovered and flew into cornfield with BLC functioning all the way to impact.

I was at Vought when the F4 was being introduced to the Fleet. At the time I felt that part of my job was to maintain interest in the F8 hopefully to sell a few more. (We were successful in Mods but not more airframes).

We had many great "Happy Hours" at Miramar with gun camera film showing F4s in the crosshairs. While at Vought I created many "stick with the F8" notions such as the meanest Mutha in the Valley( which my boss refused to print , My Reserve CO printed for nothing,after acceptance of first printing LTV paid for the rest.). The F8s forever stickers went over well as did the red garters for the ladies. The 1000 mph pins were established before I got to Dallas but I established the 2000 plaques and the 3000 hour pistolas. I first proposed expensive 22cal pistols that could be used as plinkers on a weekend outing. Much to my surprise my "Large Boss" 5' 5" gorilla person told me that my thinking was too small. He asked how many might make this mark and I estimated quickly "FIVE" . We bought 5 Colt collector 45s. I
later had to go back and beg for several more and the last one was for "Bud" Flagg who was in the bird that slammed into the Pentagon.

PJ Smith

559.
In 1950, with a Police Action starting in Korea, I went from F8F8F's to F6F6F's as a temporary measure; carqualled in the Hellcat just because there was a deck available, then transitioned to Corsairs. All this was "read the manual and go". No RAG, no two-seaters, not even any NATOPS manuals. After carqual in Corsairs we immediately were told to transition to jets. The concept of a RAG lived only in the memories of WWII ATUs, where fighter pilots often trained in SBDs, awaiting Hellcats from the factory.

Transition to jets meant flying a Corsair (or riding in an SNB, for us Ensigns) from Miramar to North Island, where the old-time jet jocks of VF-721 (they'd had their F9F9F's for 4 months) gave us a few system lectures in the morning, followed by our first fam flight in the afternoon. They were too busy with their own work to bother with a "chase pilot" but we'd never heard of such a thing anyhow. AirPac required 20 hours in type before starting FCLP, and 30 hours before CarQual. Yes, those boats were all straight deck (Essex was just coming to the fleet with its 27C conversion); we flew flat paddles passes; when you got the cut it was either a landing or a crash. Eight landings now to qualify, one more on the ORI in Hawaiian waters. My tenth carrier landing in Panthers was with 33 hours in jets and at the end of my first combat mission, with small holes in my airplane.

After shore duty came some offbeat duty assignments, including transitioning to Banshees (F2H-2, -2, and -4), Cougars, and miscellaneous types such as TV-1s, and FJ-2, -3, and -4, all without the benefit of a RAG, a 2-seater, a chase pilot, or, in most cases even another pilot who had flown that bird. These transitions were mixed in with a few old fashioned prop planes, such as AD's and even TBM's. My technique with a new plane was to get on top of a stratus layer, use it as "the deck", and practice patterns and approaches to a stall until I got the feel for approach speeds, etc., then back to the field for touch and goes. That worked for me for a lot of single-chair airplanes, and I never bent one or scared myself too much.

On a couple of duty assignments, I even got to run my own RAG. As the only jet pilot on staff at the Photo School in '52-53, I was responsible for checking out pilots who came to the Photo Recon course. Most of these were Corsair pilots, but there were others, including a few four-fan drivers (one of whom later became an author of note and wrote a best seller about jet pilots). My technique was to administer a Pilot's Handbook exam (which I wrote myself), then I took them out in an SNJ to make sure they could really fly an airplane, then put them in the Panther. I'd follow them around on that first flight if they wanted me to. A few years later I found myself assigned as VF Flight Training Officer at a Reserve base. We had weekend warriors to be checked out in Cougars, some of whom hadn't flown a joystick airplane since flight training. I used my old technique from the Photo School, adding the requirement to get that SNJ out of the spin I put it in. Lots of our reservists were airline pilots, to whom spin recovery was a totally forgotten art. But we did two years with no accidents (until the week after I was detached).

I finally got to CarQual in Cougars in 1957 (F9F-8F9F-8B's - the new -8T 2-seaters were only for instrument training) with my first look at the angled deck and the mirror, although we alternated with flat paddles approaches.

Imagine the shock to me when I finally got to go through a real RAG (VF-124) for F8Us in '59. Weeks and weeks of ground school, simulator time (which I learned to hate even more than the old Link Trainer), and 2-seat time in F9F-8Ts, which we could almost get supersonic (steeply downhill) and had to spin just to prove that we could do it. I actually resented having another pilot follow me around on my first F8U flight (please stay back out of my way!). The hardest thing to get used to in angled-deck carrier landings was pushing forward on the throttle at touchdown, even when you knew you had trapped. My friendly LSO finally started screaming POWER to me over the radio at the moment of touchdown (thanks, Roger). We still did an occasional flat paddles pass with the Crusaders, to practice in case the mirror failed, until we found that "cut-dump-flare" often resulted in a flattened tail cone and a hook jammed up into the torn metal. Later, with the -2, they added those tail fins which made it even easier to scrape metal on landing.

Well, there's no doubt that carrier flying is a lot safer now. Today's tailhookers are much more sophisticated and advanced, and can do so much more than we could. But they just can't be having as much fun as we did!

Screws aka Dick Shrewsbury

560.
It seems like everybody from my era, (1956) has a tale about their first carrier landings. I was out of NAVCAD class 20-56 and did my basic training in props (T-34, T-28 B's and C's). Getting ready for my first carrier landing was done in the T-28C out of "Bloody" Barrin Field, Ala. using paddles. When the day came to hit the boat the weather turned sour and even though we were airborne we had to turn back to Barrin. It seems the boat had a yard period that couldn't be delayed, so it left the next day for Norfork. With no boat to work I was sent on to advance in Memphis and the T-33. Two years later, after a short tour in VF-22 (F-2H), read the book and go, I was in VF-173 flying the FJ-3M. I did day and night FCLP at Mayport, Fla., and the first time I saw a carrier was from the air flying with the first group to qual. on the ESSEX. My first pass was a wave off, the second was a bolter and the third was a trap. After that first trap everything went as it should and by the next day I was day and night qualified. On my Med. cruise, now with VF-62, I was one of three that were night back up spares for the F4D (VF-13) when one of their A/C went down prior to launch. As day fighters about all we could do at night was fill a hole in the sky so the bean counters could mark a block saying all missions completed. The first RAG I went through was VF-174 at Cecil Field. From there to VU-10 in Gitmo and on and on for 26 years and 15 different A/C. VF-174 was my only RAG all the other check outs were, look at the book, get a few system lectures and launch. That held true for 3 models of the A-4 as well as the ol' AD-6, the only 'tail wheel' plane I ever flew-----and that is another story for later.
Bill Query

561.
I suppose like most of us who went through flight training in the 1957-1958 era I had my first landings on the Antietam. We did FCLP's at Bronson Field in T-28 Charlie's and got the necessary touch and goes and traps right off Pensacola using paddles. My flight was held over to go back aboard using the mirror which had not been incorporated into the basic syllabus up until then. We bounced for a day or two and then went back out to the boat where we got another 6 or 8 traps and a nice little card saying we were the first students to qualify aboard ship using the Mirror Optical Landing System. I don't know about the others but I just flew the deck paying scarcely any attention to the mirror. It was possible to do that with the T-28; a very easy a/c to land aboard ship.

Advanced for me was at Kingsville. T28 instruments at South Field, jet transition was in the TV-2. We finished up in the F9F-5 that was not being used for CQs at that time.

I went to F4Ds in VMF(AW)-531initially at Cherry Point and later in WesPac. We got two decks, Forrestal on the East Coast and Lexington out of Naha, Okinawa. Hank Hise was the CO when we deployed, a fine but very conservative skipper. During our briefing prior to heading out to the boat he directed that we fly out gear down. (Evidently he feared the excitement of CQ would cause someone to make a gear up pass). Harry Robinson, our OpsO, and a volatile character by any standard, threw his helmet against the bulkhead and said he'd be damned if he would do any such thing, "We'll look like a bunch of F...ing Zeros attacking Pearl Harbor and the Navy will never let us forget it." Hise relented.

The "Ford" was not a difficult a/c to being aboard ship but it had a dutch roll in the groove that was not apparent to the pilot but looked bad from the platform.

I flew F8s aboard Midway out of Kaneohe when I had 50 hours in type. The F8 was a great a/c in every respect but required close attention to speed and power control coming aboard ship. A typical bad F8 pass was fast start, pull power, low in the middle, too much power at the ramp, bolter.

I never qualed in the F4 but had several deck periods with the A4 that was another nice a/c to land aboard ship. Most of the time Marines had to beg for deck time from the Navy. Our sister squadron at Kaneohe, VMF (AW) -212, had a combat cruise aboard Oriskany but that was somewhat of an exception. Now the rotation is more equal, a good thing in my opinion.

Bruce Martin

562.
In the summer of 1962 VMCJ-3 was Car Qualing with VMFA 232 on the 14^th of Sept 62 on CVA 14 Ticonderoga and as time would have it the Ship’s new Skipper was afraid of F8’s and of course Marines. So we had to wait on the wind to come up so that there would be at least 35Kts across the deck because the Ship could only make 30 Kts. So we would wait most of two days in calm wind before we started to fly. This sequence of events took 5 days. When time came to depart the CAG came down to the Ready room to brief us who where to put on a short air show for SECNAV Guests. We would all launch in Burner with the Fighters making a low pass abeam in Diamond and I the only RF would come by pull up and do a few rolls. After I was airborne I waited to be cleared in just aft of the ship at about 5grand waiting to be cleared in after a few minutes I cleared in and I in came at 500 Kts pulled 5G’s when I was vertical I started to roll about 6 times leveled out and started for El Toro. Then I received a call form the CAG who said “Is that the best you can do?” I replied by asking for another pass which was granted. So I positioned my self 8 miles astern and at 8 grand. With clearance for a pass I started down for the ship in Burner and I had my Radar Altimeter set for 75 feet as I got lower and the speed was building up I could see shock waves coming off the back of the wings in my mirrors and the airspeed was indicating 670Kts and bouncing a little bit . Looking straight ahead I noticed all the people on the Flight Deck was lying down so I went right over the Flight Deck pulled 6g’s went though 11000’before I knew what happened. I switched to center and returned to El Toro fully expecting to be called on the Carpet but, no one said a word. Two weeks later I went to AIRPAC LSO meeting at North Is. And before the meeting started the AIRPAC LSO asked me to step out side the meeting room and I thought well here it comes but, all he said was” WAS that you that Boomed the Bounty Dick two weeks ago? I said “Yes Sir’ and he said” SOB” and that was all.
Jim Parsons

563.
how we got to F8J configuration.

   Started out adding BLC since it really worked well on F8E-FN. I flew these birds and the approach speed was significantly slower.

   Then there was a requirement for ECM and armor plate. It all went up front creating more need for UHT trim upward. It really got so bad that back at the factory (where I was) LTV had to decrease trailing edge angle to get toward being acceptable.

   All of these changes were requested by and signed off by some very knowledgeable F8 drivers at NAVAIR. So we cannot just throw it all back on the contractor.

   The F8J was unforgiving if you found yourself in the hole over the ramp. I cannot remember the technique that our aerodynamicist came up with but I do recall that it was not well received.

   In fact the guys came up with an F8J patch and I thought that I still had one but cannot locate.

   It went something like this "In God we trust, but not F8J thrust"!

564.
Regarding the F-8J patch:
In VF-53 we had an F-8J patch that said over the top of an "F-8J" notation (enlarged J), "Our need is thrust" and across the bottom "In God we trust"

Gearbox aka Robert Gerhardt
VF-53, '68 and '69, "Bonnie Dick"

565.
I spent 39 months in VF-13. I didn't know till quite awhile later that my wife had kept a calendar of that tour. She showed me where I was home 156 days of that 39 month tour. While some folks were dreamin', we were steamin' !

I tell you that to further explain about blown struts. During that tour, we never had a blown strut !!!,,, ever !!!! Burner shots or not (I luved those burner shots!!). Why, because we had a some crotchety, rough-neck 2nd class petty officers= Sam Moore, Mike Mauer, & Bill Thom, that, while at work on those aircraft, or on liberty in barcelona , would beat your butt if you didn't do it correctly !!!! Good training. Valuable lessons learned from them old timers. One of those old timers were out on the aircraft any time that maint: was being performed. Always!!!

That's where I learned, and then practiced throughout my 30yrs of active duty, if you want to know what's going on,,, be the first one there, and the last one to leave, then you will know. As long as you maintain that practice, you'll never have to operate off of any second hand information !!!

V/R AFCM Dave Bebout usn retired= (1964-1995) VF-13 plane captain and airframes / metalsmith troubleshooter.

I sure loved to watch those f-8's perform !!

566.
The "exploding" MLG strut problem was attributed to a dieseling action during strut compression. It was solved, early-on, by servicing the struts with nitrogen instead of air. I don't believe, prior to the fix, that CRT cat shots were fleet-wide SOP.

Regards, Dick Cavicke

567.
Strut failures - first heard of one in '59, when one failed, jammed into the fuel tank, giving an instant ball of flame. Our tech rep explained. To properly service those struts, you had to wing jack the plane, open up the strut, drain the oil, then put in a measured amount of fluid. Off the jacks, then insert air until the proper 2-finger ( 3 aboard ship) height. Too many slipshod maintenance crews got by with just filling the struts with air. It looked the same on walkaround, until the strut took a massive jolt. (Physics 101: air compresses, fluid don't much).
Screws aka Dick Shrewsbury

568.
Sea stories get better with age! As I remember (what the Captain really means is this is BS!)you men that flew the early F8s were the real iron men, no auto throttle and no ventral fins! My understanding is the airplane was a squirrel in the high altitude gunnery pattern! I've heard a few stories of F8s going by the Tractor with flames coming out of the intake! (See first sentence above.) Now, for some of my own. The F8Es we flew in Viet Nam, ORISKANY in 1967/8 were great machines, took a hands off cat shot (at least in the day time, not sure what the lifties and lurkies were doing to the wings at night, but seems that one had to rotate at night! Had to pay attention coming aboard, day max fuel weights of 1400lbs and night at 1600lbs, not much room for error, low fuel light at 1150lbs ± 50 lbs as I recall. I had a chance to fly the Spook for three years, almost always clean, and I would compare the F8 to a finely tuned Ferrari and the Spook (aka F4) to an earth shaking, ear splitting, big block Corvette. Both had their good points but really glad I started and learned in the F8! To this day, it's still one of the most beautiful fighters I've ever seen! Now, to the infamous F8J, Jesus, how they could screw up such a great machine! TICO in Nam in 1969, not much happening in the war but fairly interesting around the boat. At outside temperatures above 87 degrees Fahrenheit, we had to reduce max landing weight (spelled fuel load) by 100lbs per degree! If you boltered, the procedure was accelerate to 135 KIAS, turn the BLC off and then the a/c could climb to pattern altitude where one could reconfigure to BLC on and approach speeds of approx. 126 KIAS! Five degrees of automatic horizontal stabalizer input as the BLC came off or on as the flaps extended/retracted another 15 or so degrees and 800lbs of thrust was returned to the tail pipe or taken from, depending on up or down! What idiot came up with that idea is beyond me! The only approach accident we ever had in the F8E was a hung ordinance, wing down approach; who thought we needed this BLC thing! Ahhh! Don't you love the recall!
Cheers, Ron Coalson, VF 162 SUPERHEAT Forever!!

570.
This goes back a few years...some of the events occurred before I reached the F-8 community in 1961. I came to know Charlie Marak, the Chance Vought Tech Rep, fairly well, as I was a Division Officer in the VU-7 maintenance department, my first duty assignment. Charlie was an indispensable resource during the squadron's receipt of 42 F8U-1's. I also came to know the F-8 civilian lead, on the test line at O&R, NORIS. As a result, I very early on, managed to finagle my way into production test pilot status at O&R.

My memory is that originally each F-8 MLG strut contained the accumulator for one of the hydraulic systems in the upper section of the strut, naturally designed as a weight saving measure. I do not know the exact start of the MLG problems, but somewhere in the beginning, I believe that the struts exploded under high stress, because the part serial number tags, which every major component had, were held on with a metal strap. Over time the metal strap, moving on the strut, wore some of the material off the strut. As that spot was weakened, high stress caused failure. The "fix" was to remove the straps, and using potting compound in place of, the tag was affixed to the strut. The problem with this was that salt air moisture got under the "sealed" tag, causing erosion, hence explosion under stress. Eventually this problem was resolved, _and_ it was decided to remove the accumulators from inside the MLG struts. The accumulators were then found inside the wheel well. Someone who preceded me may be able to amplify/correct my memory of this part of the F-8's history.

One little piece of all of this, is that when I was assigned to VFP-63, Detachment Alfa, Air Wing 2, on Midway, it was approximately July of 1963. In the 6 months prior, Midway had accumulated 47 AAR's, many as a result of gear failures on F-8's. Part of the resolution of this, I'll discuss later.

When the strut failure problem was resolved, there started to be cracking problems around the trunion mount areas, in the after part of the wheel well. Small plates were riveted on the outside skin of the aircraft as a fix. It wasn't long before larger plates were required, until, because of the size of the plate, and the site of F-8 production, it was called a "Texas patch". Another requirement for external strengthening occurred on the photo birds. Since the photo birds, did not have the guns as longitudinal strength members, the keel began to spread around the NLG mount. This required the installation of "Texas patches" on the belly of the photo birds.

As I only flew F-8's from the A's through G's, I do not know how the factory rebuilds dealt with the H's, K's, and L's. All of the extraneous patches may have been removed during the restructuring of the fuselage at Vought.

As I indicated earlier, I was assigned to the photo detachment for Midway's '63-'64 cruise. On that cruise, one of the photo pilots had a MLG strut collapse, on landing aboard Midway. Darryl Foley of VF-21 and I were assigned to investigate the accident. Of course we used PLAT video to see just what occurred. The aircraft had touched down with the hook between the number 3 & 4 wires, catching the 4 wire. As the strut was fully compressed just before the tire hit the expansion joint, the extra force caused the MLG strut to break. As Darryl and I reviewed the occurrence, we noted that the expansion joint was quite steep and narrow. We used a Zippo lighter to demonstrate this in a photo that was part of the accident report. _Eventually_, ship supervision was not happy about our conclusions, the length of the expansion join was doubled which decreased the amount of vertical force applied to the strut on landing. Things improved.

As indicated above, I flew all F-8's, A's through G's. Some of the aircraft were just through their first 15 months of life, others considerably older. My recall of flying the aircraft is that the photo was faster at low altitude, because the larger, more square nose, helped in the area rule arena, during transonic flight. I do not believe that I ever manged to get one faster at altitude, than 1.65 IMN. The F-8D, or 2N, was the cleanest and fastest of the aircraft that I flew. I once saw 1.95 IMN, I know the speed limit was 1.85 IMN, but remember, we were immortal in those days. Remembering that the stabilization systems, Yaw & Roll were vacuum tube, not solid state electronics, at 1.95, one could sense the aircraft lightly darting around both axes as if electrons were not completely controlled. If either stab had failed, the result likely would have been most interesting. Compared to the preceding F-8 models, the F-8E felt quite nose heavy to me, probably as a result of the larger, better radar, the APQ-94.

I make no claim to perfection on the above, but those are my memories, these several years later. Hopefully, others can add to this.

Thanks, Roger Crim

571.
Had a strut explode on landing in a "G" model on Shang in 1969. The conclusion of the board was that a "Charlie" model strut had been issued from the onboard supply locker that had been there for a few years and it wasn't stressed for the extra weight of the "G". Barricade solved the problem.
Jay Miller

572.
I will never take away anything that Marion Carl accomplished in his long and illustrious career in the Marine Corps, but I must add that in the 1960s he was, or at least could be, strange when it came to his flying habits. Two examples:

I was in 1st ANGLICO in Hawaii in 1963. We got our flight time at Barbers Point in the station SNB or the T-33. Often our "Bug Smasher" trips were flown to Hilo, on the big island, to pick flowers. On one such trip Charlie Daniels was scheduled to fly with General Carl. They met in Ops and Charlie was told to get the a/c preflighted and started which he did. General Carl took the left seat a few minutes later, taxied out and took off. Nothing was said. After they were airborne Charlie reached over to bring back the throttles and props. Carl, saying nothing, slapped his hand away from the quadrant, and they flew all the way to Hilo at max everything. The same routine was followed on the return trip. Charlie said that Carl never spoke to him once going or coming.

I went to F8s at Kaneohe from ANGLICO at the time that General Carl was the Brigade CG. One bad day, (we didn't have many), Kona winds with attendant rain and low ceilings, General Carl called down to say he wanted to fly one of our a/c. He said he didn't want a wingman. We had an F8B ready to go when he arrived. I wasn't on the radio so I can't vouch for what he said or didn't say to ground control or the tower, but the story went that he taxied out and took off without a word. I do know that he was gone for the better part of 3 hours, a long, long time in an F8, and returned as he had departed, without a word.

His wife, Edna, was one of the most hospitable and attractive women I have ever known.

Bruce Martin

573.
I remember flying on hops with Marion Carl several times in 65/66 out of Danang in F4's. He was always a wingman. It was group policy that only squadron members could lead, groupies had to follow and the general went along with that.

One funny. At Iwakuni in 65 the General's Aide called down and said the General will be over to fly one of your F4's. No one had a clue if he even knew how to fly the plane but we got everything together. Finding a RIO was a problem cause as soon as they heard that all of them disappeared. Anyway I was assigned to chase him around but all he did was make a Mach 2 run.

John Hogg

574.
I was camping at Stanley Lake, ID several years ago when an Airstream, being pulled by a Suburban, pulled in next to our camper. I noticed two white stars on a red field on the bumper and since I was on active duty, I planned to behave myself. As it happened, it was cold and I was wearing my green flt jacket with insignia enroute to the head when the gentleman from the Airstream asked me if I was a Naval Aviator. Upon saying I was, he introduced himself as Marion Carl. Having seen his picture in the main building going thru flt trng many years ago, I was well aware of his reputation. I invited him and his friend for drinks at dinner time and it was then that I asked him about his wartime experiences. He focused on his flying off Espirtu Santo along side Pappy Boyington's squadron. The whole evening was special but I'll relate just two of his story's. Both have to do with Pappy. First, he said if Pappy was really tying one on (and that was quite frequently) *you wanted to leave the bar* cause Pappy would want to wrestle and was quite good at it. The result was that the pilot on the receiving end of his efforts usually ended up being tossed out the window of the bar. The second story had to do with Pappy getting shot down. Pappy was to return to the States and go on a War Bond drive shortly but he was competing with Maj Bong on the number of kills in the Pacific. Because of this, Pappy asked Carl if he could take his strike hop and Carl knowing the reason, said yes. Pappy was shot down on this hop and Carl said he never saw Pappy again. He said he was glad he didn't see him cause he thought Pappy might just want to wrestle him if they did.....
J Dempsey

575.
In 1973, Jack Dailey was CO of VMCJ-1. He was to fly wing on Marion Carl who was the IG of the USMC and had a letter authorizing him to fly any USMC aircraft. When Gen Dailey (later was Assistant Commandant of the USMC) took off as #2, Marion Carl stayed in AB until he got to cruising altitude. As I remember him telling the story later, they landed with under 1000 lbs. in the RF-4B.
Walt Quist

576.
Gen. Carl was a great Aviator but a strange General It was not unusual for someone else to start his aircraft and he would than fly off without clearances and to destinations unknown. I know of an instance in an OV-10 when he showed up the engine was already started and off he went with his aide. Eventually he would return and the aide would inform us of where they had been, NATOPS was not in his vocabulary. As the CG of MCAS Cherry Point he had an MP car that he drove and personally issued tickets for speeding. This in no way belittles his aviation achievements but as a General he was weird.

Al Ransom

577.
I was in flight test at Patuxent (Marions old office) and on 6 Dec 1956 got to fly he YF8U-l prototype. Had flown a lot in the YF7U-3M, which none of the Navy types cared to fly, and the boss assigned me as asst. to Maj. Lynn Helms, the other Marine in the office, to test/eval the F8. Then Lynn resigned to head Piper and the FAA, and I got the project. It did fine during the entire project, and everyone liked it. One day, Marion stopped by , pulled up a chair, and asked to be briefed on all the planes. I told him how great the F8 was doing and then we discussed the YF4D vs the YF3H demon. I told him how everyone of the 10 pilots in the office liked the fine flying qualities of the F3H, vs the bad dihedral, trim changes, etc on the YF4D. He listened quietly and then said "Hal, I have always liked the plane with the performance. Pilots can learn to handle those bad qualities. etc" Well sure enough--the F3H went then to Service test and the shroud shrunk around the blades in the soup, and they had to be trimmed resulting in more loss of thrust. The Marines were "stuck" with the assignment of the F4D, and the Navy took the F3H. All thanks to Marion.

Hal Vincent

578.
In late 1969 I was the Assistant G-3 for the
2ndWg at Cherry Point. General Carl was CG of the Wing. On a Thursday I got a request from the CG to get have a T-28 from New River flown up to Cherry Point for him to use on a Cross Country. I thought the request very strange as he normally flew northing but jets. The T-28 arrived and General Carl departed advising me that he would be in touch with the Wing Staff Duty Officer re his return. On Sunday, 3 days later, I just happened to be the WSDO. General Carl advised me that he was in Memphis and would be in around 6 PM and to advise his aide and driver. I met his plane on his arrival and asked if I could do anything for him. He said yes, be sure and get the back of the aircraft cleaned up before it is returned to New River. I did not asked questions. He departed and I went over to check out the aircraft. The back of that T-28 was full of dried blood and animal hair. It didn't take much to get it cleaned up although it was a real mess. Later found out
that he had flown all the way out to, I think it was, Montana, to go deer and elk hunting over the weekend. Seems that the place he flew into was a remote area, thus the T-28. After hunting he then loaded his game in the back of the aircraft, remember it has a big cargo area under or behind the rear seat, then flew to some spot where the game was unloaded, for whatever purpose he had in mind, and he then flew back to Cherry Point and arrived about 1900 on Sunday. I asked if he had a good trip and all he said was "Yes, but be sure and get the rear end of the aircraft cleaned up before they come up from New River to pick it up tomorrow." Not only was he one hell of a pilot but he loved the outdoors for hunting and fishing. I have another Marion Carl story re a duck hunt in Pamlico county, also in 1969 but I'll save that one for another day.
Bob Schultz, Col., USMC (Ret)
P.S. Ditto the comments re Edna Carl. She was a real friendly, pretty and classy lady.

579.
VMFA-542, F-4Bs, 1965, Da Nang. 1stLt Gruhler was scheduled w/the skipper for a mission to take out a VC village. First, during the the brief the SDO took a call: the Group CO wanted some time. LtCol Savage said, "Put him on my wing".. The Group CO arrived smartly. Second, the SDO took another call; BGen Carl, the Asst Wing Commander, was driving his Jeep to fly w/542 to fly with us, The Skipper said, "Put him on Gruhler's wing" ( I was a section leader).

Gen Carl arrived, the skipper started his brief the 3rd time, finished, and then SOP required me to brief my wingman. Gen Carl was polite, didn't say a word, and listened to my "brief" briefing. We walked to the birds with our RIO's.

First run, the CO and Group CO got good hits, as did I as Dash 3 but Carl had rolled in as I did right behind me and was firing his 5" Zunis right behind my flight path!! Col Savage threw him outta the pattern!
That took some balls as Gen. Carl wrote his wrote his Fitness Report

Semper Fi,
Growler

580.
I needed a flight from Cherry Point to Beaufort for some admin business and back to Cherry Point. I found General Carl was going and returning at a time that would work with my plans.
He was going to fly there in a T-28 and the back seat was available. So I met him in ops and asked if I could ride along with him and he said, "get in the plane." So I did and he didn't say a word but just chewed his finger nails !! I think this was in the early 60s and maybe he was a Colonel at that time.
fx aka Franis Rozinski

581.
.I told my buddy, Lyle Prouse, about the Marion Carl stories we've been reading and sent them to him since he was Carl's Aide and friend. Here's Lyle's response for those who may be interested. Use it or not as Lyle says.
Bob Johnson

Hi Bob,

If you wish, you may share these stories with any of the members of your group...or not. Makes no diff to me.

When I reunited with him twenty years after my time with him in Vietnam, one of THE most difficult things I had to learn to do was call him "Marion," which he insisted on. Marion Carl simply had no ego. From the time he retired he was simply "Marion," and there was nothing on his mailbox or personal belongings shouting his status as a ret'd Marine Corps Major General.

Both stories you sent sound very much like Marion Carl and quite authentic. As you know, I fought, kicked, and screamed about being assigned as his aide in Vietnam in late '65...but it was the experience of a lifetime and one I'd have missed if I'd had my way in the beginning.

The aide I replaced was a handsome, smooth, polished Naval Academy grad who'd made captain - and Gen Carl rated a first lieutenant. By contrast, I was rough, former enlisted, with a high school education, and I came from an alcoholic family and a Native American community in a WWII housing project. Why the hell he picked me out of the group of candidates who desperately WANTED the job remains a mystery to this day. Perhaps it was the combat environment and the brief time I'd have with him in Vietnam (about 4 months), because I sure as heck wouldn't have been appropriate in a receiving line in the Officer's Club.

Marion was only "strange" to those who hadn't spent time around him. I became very comfortable with his silences and after a while neither of us needed to speak. Sometimes we'd be out all day, flying here and there in battlefield situations, and nothing would be said.

If I had something I wanted to ask, I did, and I was comfortable doing so; I was never fearful or reluctant. And he always replied in a cordial manner. He never seemed to object to my questions and was always willing to answer - although he was sparse in the conversation and never said more than was necessary.

Our flying in Vietnam was very much the same as your friends described. We just went. No wingman, no call signs, and no talking. The only two times I was hit in an aircraft was with him in a Huey. I never came back with a hole in my A4 prior to joining him.

The comment about his wife, Edna, was absolutely accurate and true. She was a former Powers Model whom he met after becoming the first Marine Ace of WWII and being squired around the country on a Bond Tour. She was completely 180 degrees opposite of Marion. She was a big city girl from New York City, and he was a country boy from an Oregon farm. She loved parties and gregarious events, and Marion loved hunting elk in the far backcountry. She loved dinner parties and conversation and Marion loved solitude.

She told me once, that no one had given their marriage a chance of success. Yet they were completely devoted to each other, honored and respected the differences of the other, and they were solidly married until their deaths.

In Vietnam, after chow at the Gen's Mess (MGen McCutcheon was the two-star boss), most would have some drinks afterwards and visit. Gen Carl might have one drink and then depart with minimal conversation. He had NO time for the visiting VIP's who were there simply looking for photo ops. And he particularly disliked Ted Kennedy. The only Hollywood personality (of the scads who came over) whom he liked and spoke with was Charlton Heston, who was genuine and honest, and Marion sensed it.

I had two opportunities to pack in and hunt with Marion some twenty years after I'd been his aide. Edna told me I was the only former aide he ever communicated with, invited to his home, or asked to go on a hunting trip. The hunting party was a closed group of his WWII friends so I was aware that I had some sort of special membership in it.

On both occasions I spent a week or more in their home, both before and after the hunt. Edna always had a large dinner party at some point and Marion always went along with it. He'd clearly made some changes since their early days of marriage. It was never his favorite thing to do, but he'd learned to accommodate very well.

Marion and I spent a lot of time alone, just the two of us in his home. We talked about hunting and took some walks in the surrounding mountains. He had an extensive gun collection that I enjoyed looking at - lots of very nice rifles that he'd acquired.

I've never met anyone like Marion Carl. He was totally unimpressed with himself, never thought he was anyone or anything special, and he just went about his business. Just days prior to my having arrived for our final hunt in 1995, he'd saved the life of a guy on the raging whitewater of the Umpqua river, which ran just behind his home outside of Roseburg, OR. The man capsized and was on the verge of drowning when Marion waded out and tossed him a rope, pulling him in. He never said a word to man, other than helping him ashore, and had the guy not called the local paper no one would have known about it - his wife Edna, was even unaware of it. Marion was 75 years old at the time.

That was just simply Marion Carl.

Blue skies,
Lyle

PS - he wrote a book called "Pushing The Envelope" which is a good read. It took ten years for Barrett Tillman to get him to finally complete it (Barrett did the final writing).

582.
Marty Richards sent me your remarks forwarded from mdaniels and I just read your remarks, those of Bob Johnson and the words of Lyle Prouse. We met Lyle several times during Hap's Marine Corps career. Edna Carl was my best friend in the Marine Corps days and until she died last March. My husband, Hap, was Marion's hunting pal for over 30 years. I just gave this to Hap to read and he really enjoyed it. FYI: Here's another: We lived two doors from them in Tustin for several years and Marion and Hap would car-pool to and from El Toro each day. One day I asked Hap what they talked about every day. His answer was, "We don't talk. One of us drives and the other reads the paper." Your comments and Lyle's brought back some good memories and laughs. We always had the best parties at the Carls when Marion was away. Bruce Carl, Marion's son, lives in Folsom, about 25 minutes from us. We live in Sacramento County. Bruce is like our third son and we see a lot of him.

Semper Fi,
Ruthie Langstaff, wife of Hap Langstaff, USMC (Ret)

583.
Back during 1965 I was working in Beaufort (NBC) as Group LSO for, at the time, both MAG 31/32. One late night (really somewhere between 1 and 2 AM) I was standing alone (I thought) at the end of the runway conducting the FCLP work-up for Carrier Qualifications for VMF(AW) 333. At some point I became aware of the fact that --- I was not alone.

Standing some distance behind me, in the darkness, was a tall man dressed in a flight suit and fore & aft cap (no rank insignia). I have no idea how long he had been standing in the background watching and listening as I worked the "bounce" session with six aircraft in the pattern. After some time, curiosity overcame discretion and I walked back for a closer look at this "silent and uninvited observer". Approaching, I asked "can I help you" and "is there anything in particular that he wanted/needed to see". The answer was short, sweet and to the point, "no, I'm just watching to see if you know what you're doing and how you are working the approaches". He went on to say, "My name is Marion Carl and I will be coming aboard with VMF-333 for Carrier Re-Qualifications". When asked if he would be coming out to join in for Field Carrier Landing Practice, Gen. Carl went on to say, "no, I will be in the first division coming aboard and I'll have my hook down, no touch and goes, I will call the ball and no need for you to call me unless you think it is something I really need to know".

Well that's about it other than to say that Gen. Carl was "four for four" but the pattern and approaches were nothing like anything I had seen before. The pattern was along the lines of an F4U pattern, turning all the way with almost no straight away and I don't think I made more than one or two "in close calls" related to power. When the PLAT video picked him up he was coming out of the bottom of the screen but coming over the Round Down he was in the Cross Hairs --- but maybe just a little flat. The Air Boss and CAG LSO were both screaming at me over the sound phones about both, the pattern, the approach and why I had not said anything to the pilot. I assured them that I was watching closely and had the "Pickle" ready if needed. Other than for the pattern and speed control crossing the ramp, everything was OK and I think he caught a #3 or #4 wire each time. Four for four ------ not bad in a Crusader and in this case ----- with no practice FCLP's. Nevertheless, the CAG LSO was giving me a pretty strong out-briefing after the session but eased off a bit after when he learned the circumstances and ----- the name of the illustrious pilot at the controls coupled with the fact that the Squadron Co stepped up in my defense.

As others have already said, "it was apparent that Gen. Carl was a man of few words and never wanted to waste time on what he considered nonessentials.

Bill Rice "Paddles" [VMF(AW)-451/235/333/251, circa 1962-1966]

584.
' Turkey ' Tucker was with the ' Blues ' during the last years of the F4's, then stayed on for two years of the A4. During Viet Nam he flew F8U Crusaders.

   Here's his incredible true story of his falling off a carrier's front end, while inside his Crusader's cockpit :

   ' Turkey ' told me he was waiting to be launched for another day of combat over Viet Nam.

   There was some problem with the aircraft on the cat in front of him, so they pulled it off and put Turkey's Crusader in its place. He wound it up, gave the salute and waited for the launch. He felt it start to go.

Then nothing.

With zero acceleration, his aircraft began coasting down the carrier's flight deck.

   He jerked off the power and got on the brakes, while simultaneously stop- cocking the engine.

   The aircraft halted . . then as precisely as a ballet dancer . . it seemed to balance as it teetered out over the flight deck's front edge. With each of the ship's tossing motions, he could feel the Crusader altering its balance under his ' max puckered ' rear-end.

   Air Boss told Turkey to stay in the cockpit . . said they were attempting to hook him up to a heavy tug . . and a gang of sailors were hanging from his aircraft's tail to change its center of gravity.

Unfortunately, the carrier drove into a significant swell.. . T-H-A-T    D-I-D    I-T !

   Down he went toward the water below . . to face the carrier's bow, then be eaten alive by ( 4 ) four ( 30 ) thirty ton screws with their 21 foot orbiting tips.

   As the Crusader fell, it rotated one wing down, and Turkey saw the carrier's bow plowing through the water. He didn't know which was worse . . seeing the sea coming up in his face . . or watching the carrier's bow heading at him.

   While he'd been teetering, he'd thought of ejecting. But he was too worried about being run over by the carrier . . or sucked into its propellors.

   Now . . nauseated with fear, he struck the water . . instantly followed by being struck by the carrier's bow as it carved his Crusader in half.

   With eyes wide-open, Turkey watched the process of getting killed . . knowing that he was ' just going along ' for the unthinkable ride . . into the screws.

   The terrible wrenching snap would ' acid-etched his memory when, several feet behind his head, the carrier's bow simply broke his Crusader in two. Amazed, Turkey realized he was still unhurt within the cockpit's module.

   The water was so clear and he could see every the detail of the ship's bottom as his cockpit ' bounced and whirled ' along . . and he recalls each hit as barnacles gouged out chunks from the plexiglas canopy around his head.

   He thought . . maybe I'm going to get away with this . . when terror struck again as he saw the ship's four screws . . with their horrific high pitched scream. . and spinning like hell.

And he was headed straight for them.

As he visualized being chewed up . . he felt a sudden acceleration and knew he was now being ' inhaled into the vortex ' of the four propellors.

   Gripped in horror, Turkey watched with open mouth as his cockpit's battered module . . passed in between two of the massive propellors . . to randomly dodge the huge rudders . . . wasn't even touched !

   Disoriented and rolling violently in the screws' wake, Turkey saw the sun as the still buoyant module popped to the surface.

   With his heart thumping wildly in his chest, Turkey attempted to eject, but   his shaking hands were out of control. Several times he tried to blow off the   canopy, but he didn't have the coordination.

Until his third try.

    He blew the canopy off, and the module immediately filled with sea water. And it sank. Passing through 35 to 40 feet . . going down fast, he unbuckled . . then muscled himself out.

   He kicked away in the right direction, and when he popped to the surface, he was greeted by a rescue swimmer who had leaped out of a chopper to give him an assist. During the helicopter ride, Turkey told anyone who would listen that he couldn't thank GOD enough . . and he praised the LORD all the way back to the ship.

   They got him to the ship's Doc, where Turkey recalls a comical remark of sheer relief erupting from his mouth : " You can bet your ' rear end ' that next time I won't blow off that canopy ! "

Check 6
' Corkey ' Fornof

585.
Excerpt from Marion Carl's memoir : ' Pushing The Envelope ' co-authored by Barrett Tillman

In September 1949 then Lt. Col. Marion Carl was about to begin his second test pilot tour at Patuxent River.

   Meanwhile, the Marine Corps wanted him to promote naval aviation, so he took an F9F-2 Panther to the West Coast. He had no way of knowing that he was about to face one of the most challenging flights of his legendary career, which by then included two combat tours in

WW II and the world speed record.

Here’s Marion’s description from his memoir . . Pushing the Envelope :

    “At Portland Air Base my Panther developed a dead battery, so I had to talk the National Guard out of a new one. The dead battery should have made me suspicious. The problem delayed my takeoff until dusk 1 October, filing for NAS North Island, San Diego.

   Near LA, my electric compass started spinning . . my radio went dead. . and all my lights went out. I’d had an electrical failure. That was the bad news.

   On the other hand, I knew I had plenty of fuel—mostly in my wing tanks. That was the good news. But without instruments I couldn’t tell if I was drawing [ gas ] from them.

However, I soon found out because my engine quit over Oceanside 50 miles north of San Diego.

   “At 27,000 feet I had to make a quick decision : turn back for MCAS El Toro or proceed to North Island. Since I had filed for the latter, I continued on and set up my best glide speed.

   " It worked well, as I had more than 5,000 feet overhead the air station. I decided to buzz the tower to let them know I was coming in because I had no power, lights, or communications.

   “ I pulled up from my low pass at the tower and wrapped the Panther into a 270-degree [ zero engine RPM ] turn. Everything was all right until base leg, when the windscreen froze over. I had to skid the plane so I could look out one side, but I made a successful deadstick landing.

   “ I was a mile down the runway when I stopped, and I waited for somebody to come out and give me a hand. Nothing happened. Finally I jumped out and walked a mile to the tower . . leaving my airplane on the runway.

   I walked in and asked the duty officer, ‘ Do you realize you’ve got an airplane on that active runway with no lights ? Anything trying to take off or land is liable to run into it.’

That woke him up. I added, ‘ By the way, I made a pass at the tower to alert you. You had a flight plan on me, didn’t you?’

The lieutenant said, ‘ Oh, yes.’

So I asked him who he thought buzzed the tower and he replied, ‘ Oh, I just thought that was somebody flat-hatting.'

   Marion proceeded east via Denver and Glenview. But the excitement wasn’t over. “ Two days later I continued   to Cherry Point . . filing IFR on top. Everything was fine, until the magnetic compass started spinning, indicating another electrical failure.

" Immediately, I contacted Raleigh Flight Following and cancelled my IFR flight plan. I had no sooner done that than . . everything went dead !

   Now I was on top and had to find some way of getting down through the cloud deck— without instruments.

   “ If the overcast is very thick, a descent without instruments inevitably leads to a grave-yard spiral. But I knew I had a 2,500-foot ceiling underneath. And was contemplating the old airmail pilot’s trick of ' spinning down ' through the overcast.

But fortunately I didn’t have to do that. I found a hole and got down safely.

   I still wanted to find the cause of the electrical problems, so the next day I had the crew tie the airplane down and turn up normal power. After 45 minutes the electrical system went dead again.

   The mechanics found that the reverse current relay was causing the battery to overcharge . . then short out.

    Pulling off the night landing at North Island without power, instruments, or lights was the sort of unexpected challenge that kept flying so attractive.

" But I definitely didn’t want to do it again ! ”

   Subsequently, Marion attained an unofficial world altitude record, flew clandestine photo missions over China, and served a very active combat tour    in Vietnam.

586.
XF8U-1/F8U-1 FLIGHT TESTING

Mr. Lynn Helms is the military father of our F8U airplanes. Many of you F8 pilots have submitted great operational stories. What has been missing is how the plane we flew came to be.

Lynn's first tour in Flight Test at Patuxent River, after completion of Test Pilot School, was in 1951. Marion Carl was also in the office, and both evaluated many planes, including the YF7U. After a Korea tour at K-3 Pohang, Korea, Lynn returned to Flight Test for a second tour. As usual he flew all the planes being evaluated and was assigned as the primary test pilot for the F8U. This paper, by Lynn, tells of the problems during those 4 critical Navy Preliminary Evaluatons (NPE). I arrived at Flight Test, after school, and was assigned as Lynn's assistant, but all the tough previous work by Lynn made it an easy assignment.

Lynn, soon thereafter, resigned from the Marine Corps and a series of exciting jobs followed. A partial list includes: Sales manager and director of plans and programs at North American Aviation, Group Vice President, Aerospace, Bendix, President, Nordon Division of United Aircraft Corp, President, and later Chairman of the Board, Piper aircraft, In 1980 President Reagan nominated and he was confirmed by the Senate as the Adminstrator, Federal Aviation Administration.

Lynn has received many awards, and trophies for his contribution to both general and military aviation, but to us—the F8 pilots--his performance in fixing our great airplane covered in his paper, is what we admire most. Thanks Lynn for your good work and for the documentation and memories. -- Hal Vincent -----------------------------------

July 4,   2008 Not for Publication All Rights Reserved Capt. J. L. Helms (USMC) Free, open and unlimited use granted solely to: (1) F8U Crusader organization members or participants in their direct personal activities (2) SETP members in their direct personal or professional activities.

XF8U/F8U-1 FLIGHT TEST, NPE (NAVY PRELIMINARY EVALUATION)

There are so many 'over-lapping and entangling' events, both before and during the four formal NPE's, that it is difficult to establish a valid point for starting. Every new, or "directed event" effort has two fundamental elements; - the   people, and - the environment. These became increasingly evident as the Navy Test program of the XF8U began, and was conducted the first year or so.

First, the people.

I arrived at Pax in very late 1950 and was in class 7 at TPT, (Test Pilot Training; -it was some years later that the name was changed to TPS, Test Pilots School). In my class, over half had never flown a jet airplane. Those that had flown a jet had from 15 to 30 hours of jet flight time, except for one. I was the one. I came to Pax from JTU-1, the Navy's first Jet Training Unit., at Whiting Field. Previously, I had been in VMF 311 at El Toro, flying P-80's, Thence to JTU-1. In addition to being an instructor at JTU-1, my secondary duty was as Engineering Officer there.

Prior history is pertinent, but not necessary; suffice to say I had jet time before arriving at Pax, and had been one of only two Naval Aviators that had attended a formal jet engine school, mine at Pratt and Whitney. So, with some 200 hrs of jet time, and as a prior instructor in jets and as engineering officer there, instead of just training as a student at TPT, the Director, TPS, Cdr. Joe Smith drafted me. I became the instructor to teach the "transition to jets" part of the TPT course, using the TO-2, (two place P-80); - the only one the Navy then owned.

About a month before TPT graduation Lt. Col. Marion Carl (USMC), CV Branch Head, Flight Test Division, NATC, called me and said, "I need to start talking with you about the project I have in mind for you. Incidentally, you're coming to Flight Test". So, by the time the XF8U come on the scene, (some five years later), I was well past midway on my second tour, (first NA to have back to back tours at Flight Test, Pax Riv, with only a Korean War tour in between.   My Korean tour was slightly extended by USAF F-86 duty, and other events, again with LtCol Marion Carl (USMC) and USAF. (Yes, Marion Carl was in the area then)

Cdr. R. M. "Duke" Windsor had been head of the CV Branch, Flight Test Div, PaxRiv for a number of months when F8X came along.   VERY capable, easy going, but firm in Navy's interest. Affable, but not excusing. Very willing to listen, but not to accept "thin" descriptions / evaluations. Duke had a strong and active background in carrier operations. I don't think I am the one to appraise him, but if so I could only say he was fully capable, good test pilot evaluator, active in personally confirming selected test reports of various A/C in the Branch. Summarized, he was a VERY good ACTIVE professional manager.

Vought had a good, fully capable and enthusiastic team. John McGurt, Chief of Flight Test, had been with Vought for years. I had known him back on the XF7U Cutlass days. Both John Konrad, Chief Test Pilot, and Harry Brackett, his No. 2 on the Crusader program, were new to me. I had known Bob Rostine and Bill Sunday earlier. All had good backgrounds, but perhaps just as important in one way, they were enthusiastic about the program, and VERY open about what they were trying to do.

There are undoubtedly many, MANY, people that can more clearly define the environment than can I. I will try to hit the high points, but I tell you in advance that in most cases someone who was "there on the scene" might "explain it differently". But this is the way it came through to us at Flight Test, PaxRiv. Man Oh Man! What fun it would be to have here the space / time to elaborate. Just think man, -you check into TPT, get underway and you are issued - an Ames gauge!!   Yes, man, your very own. - AMES Gauge,    Now, you can learn to dive, pull back on the stick, have the Ames Gauge between your hand and the stick, and read off the indicator of force applied to measure it as you reach 2 g's, then 2 !/2, then 3, then -4-, 5,6; WOW.   -AND, you do it laterally, - for various roll rates, speeds, ordinance configurations etc, etc. That XF8F could be put into all kinds of odd situations. (Yes, I DO mean F8F - the original XF8F was used at Flight Test as a chase plane and other uses for some years later). And maybe, best of all, the Ames Corp will sell you one for 10% off, if you graduate! Just think! -YOUR OWN AMES GAUGE!! Hey man, we're really livin!!

But, it was now some six years later, after I first arrived at PaxRiv. Now, the flight test vehicles had installed instrumentation and recording, -some pretty good!

[NEXT: Setting the stage]

587.
July 4,   2008
Not for Publication
All Rights Reserved
Capt. J. L. Helms (USMC)
Free, open and unlimited use granted solely to:
(1) F8U Crusader organization members or participants in their direct personal activities
(2) SETP members in their direct personal or professional activities.

XF8U/F8U-1 FLIGHT TEST, NPE (NAVY PRELIMINARY EVALUATION)

[Setting the stage]

The Navy's Aviation program was in trouble, quite deep trouble, with Congress. They had some six fighter type aircraft in various stages of development, - wanted to try "a new approach".   Why a new approach? -USAF had some time before, (prior year), extensively briefed Congress on how and why they were "going supersonic"!! The Navy needed something tangible, something urgent, something visible to show they were "right on track" with new technology!   Hence; the pressure for "get me results, early and positive on the F8U program" Even more depressing was the F3H. Jumping forward, after various NPE's, the flying qualities were quite good. But, the J-40 engine wasn't up to it. (Remember, a dozen or so airplanes were "floated down the Mississippi on barges". - the media had a field day!) And congress was not silent. Hence, 'Get some early progress, and make it good'. It was in this general environment that F8U entered the scene. Navy was pressing Vought for an early NPE. Vought delayed. Navy gave Vought directions; "Have NPE next 30 days". Vought deferred, -" We MUST have 90 days ". Navy gave them 60.   Midway, Vought again requested 90 days. Navy by then sensed something wasn't going well, and they needed to know; NOW. They gave Vought 30 days, and no further delays. (It was now some four months after John Konrads first flight, and the Navy hadn't been in it!). With a date now established,   Duke came to me and very casually said, "We have a firm date for the F8U at Edwards. It will be you and me.    You have more experience. You prepare a plan. I will fly the first flight".   That was all.

When you prepare a plan for an initial evaluation you don't try to be detailed. How can you be detailed when you don't have much of an idea of what you are going to run into? You create a "short and distinct" outline of how you're going to initially approach it. After the first flight or so, you can then plan what you need to do. In our case our plan for first flight was as follows. Duke had far more carrier experience than I did. Yes, I had more carrier landings, (over 300) but those were mostly "mechanical events for specific purposes. Duke had numerous years, on various carriers, in various weathers etc. This was obvious to us both from the start. Also, professionally, he had more concern for the eventual carrier capability than a Marine might have. Equally, I had some six years plus in flight test experience, mostly in high performance test and evaluation. I had flown supersonic (as if that meant anything!). No need to waste time on other reasoning, but our plan was I should initially concentrate on high speed elements.

So: - First flight: - Duke would spend 50 - 75 % time in PA [Power approach, gear/flaps down & power for level flight] configuration, and remaining time in CR [cruise, clean aircraft, and power as desired to reach sped, economic cruise, etc as desired]. I would spend 50 - 75 % in CR and remaining time in PA configuration. This would give us strong emphasis on each configuration, with a short backup confirmation on initial conclusions. Many years earlier all of us in "X" plane work at PaxRiv learned that Edwards weather was cool and smooth (mostly) in morning, but in the p.m. got bumpy etc.   So, our normal procedure was that whoever flew the second flight of the day (we never planned more than two flights per day on X aircraft) would fly the first flight the next morning. Over simplified, flight test is "learn what is happening; then confirm it!" This procedure had been rather significant earlier on the F9F-9, (ne, F11F).
--------------------------------------
[Next: Flying begins]

588.
Free, open and unlimited use granted solely to:
(1) F8U Crusader organization members or participants in their direct personal activities
(2) SETP members in their direct personal or professional activities.
XF8U/F8U-1 Flight Test, NPE (Navy Preliminary Evaluation)

[Flying begins: NPE 1 & 2]
Duke's first take off started to reveal certain things before the landing gear doors were even locked, and continued until he was nearly out of sight. A constant, lateral wing rock, not much, perhaps 5 to 10 degrees as viewed from the ground.   The same thing happened to me, as I will discuss later. We each completed our flights, without even a visible nod to each other re our results, or to the contractor. As planned,   we said / reflected nothing after our respective first flight. As planned, we met alone later at the motel.

After reviewing our respective notes, talking through numerous items, we reached very initial conclusions. (1) The overall flying qualities difference between PA and CR were FAR more exaggerated than other aircraft.   (2) The difference was so great, that future tests should more distinctly separate the two appraisals. (3) The differences were not as prominent in longitudinal elements, and while the longitudinal stability and control may well be "workable" in CR, even that element was too poor in PA. The CR longitudinal force gradient was by far too shallow, -so light that it was "touchy". (4) In PA, the Lat/Dir stability, in both axis, was minimal. Control was effective, but totally "out of sync" in "stick fixed" relationship, i.e., you could make rather large movements laterally with the stick, and get small response, but a slight movement further and control came on at a disproportionate rate. No "balance" between the stick fixed, and stick free positions. At the same time, the force gradient was not at all compatible with the continuing stick position variation. The same characteristics existed longitudinally, but to a much less extent.

Because of the large differences in stick force/position/response to position, pilot reaction to airplane response was barely discernible until the pilot saw the horizon start to change. Then take action to correct, and tell him when he was getting response; hence again, in the opposite direction, he saw the horizon and corrected.   Result, slight lateral corrections were not sensed as responsive until you saw the horizon start to move. By then you had started to move the stick further, to get response.

Summary; in PA the airplane "wallowed" about the three axis.   This is what I saw from the ground on Duke's first flight, and what I encountered on my first one. While we both needed another flight to explore it further, there was absolutely no need for discussion, no doubt: PA stability and control was TOTALLY unacceptable!

As noted CR configuration was somewhat better. Directional was most notably better, Force gradients in both lateral and longitudinal were too shallow, and again, compatibility between stick free and stick fixed positions was not good, but in this configuration it was longitudinal that was the major problem. BuAer had insisted we must be allowed 1.0 Mach. They needed to know early what transonic characteristics existed.

On my first flight I worked it up to 450 Knots EAS. The shallow gradient became more sensitive as speed increased, and was hardly noticed in steep turns or when "g's" were increased. The real sensitivity was in level flight. Our discussion the first night again showed agreement, the need for more exploration and again, CR stability and control was not acceptable.

I flew the first flight the second day, and because of our great concern put more time in PA configuration while the air was smooth.   The results further confirmed our earlier conclusions as we enlarged the envelope, but allowed more time to evaluate further, in more conditions.

In CR I started at 35 K and worked down in 5 K increments with emphasis on longitudinal.   At 35 K I slowly worked up to .95 M. The approaching Mach 1 transition buffet was essentially not noticeable. What did become evident was that as altitude was reduced, the longitudinal sensitivity steadily increased. At 20 K indicating just under 500 I had my first "jolt", i.e. when I corrected for a bump, I went further than it "felt like" and corrected, too far, but by then I was out of sync. In less than 2 seconds, I was "behind the airplane". I immediately released the stick, and it damped instantly.

That is how we discovered the PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation) tendency. The cockpit accelerometer (and later review of the on-board recorder) showed I had gone through 2 cycles, from -1.6 g to +4.7 g, at VERY high rate of widening. A true PIO. I then tried systematically to do it again, mindful of the need to IMMEDIATELY turn loose the stick.   I held up on other plans and tried for nearly 15 minutes to purposely cause it to happen. I could not duplicate it.

On landing I felt this was potentially too dangerous, and broke habit to talk with Duke about what happened. He was due the next flight, in the afternoon. I wanted to make sure he knew about it, particularly in the p.m. bumpy air environment. He made his flight and on landing said he had also tried, but couldn't find it.   Our nightly discussion again confirmed our conclusions, and we decided to use one more day, to refine our earlier conclusions, expand the respective configuration envelopes (except limitation of 1.0 M) and try to find the PIO again.

The third day was basically similar to the second, with one major difference. Duke had the first flight the third day, and when he got out of the cockpit and walked toward me he had a grin on and nearly shouted. DAMN! -I found it!   He had tried to initiate it, and couldn't, Then while straight and level but accelerating to 550 knots (he was then about 480 IAS) at 25 K he dropped a pencil, reached down to see where it was, bumped the stick and grabbed it to steady, over corrected, and he had the PIO. He immediately let the stick go. When he had settled a moment, he looked at the accelerometer. In the cycle before it registered on him what was happening, he had hit -1.9 to +5.7 g.   -and that was it.

My flight that afternoon was relatively un-eventful, just more expanding the "learning" envelopes; making sure we had enough relative data on all tests; (stick for/g in minimum of 4 data points, etc, etc). I elected to hold off on the 1.0 M, as something was happening longitudinally that we needed to better understand. That ended NPE #1.

While our formal report would have much detail, we reduced the summary to three findings. (1) The question of why Vought repeatedly delayed was completely answered. (2) Flying qualities in PA were unbelievably poor, and completely unacceptable. Flying qualities in CR were not as bad but also not acceptable. (3) A firm, but as yet undefined, longitudinal characteristic that randomly induced violent PIO was present, so strong that it was dangerous.

BuAer reviewed our findings in some detail, analyzed them from their perspective (I do NOT mean, in ANY way, it was negative. Rather, they have to look at the TOTAL Naval Aviation posture) The CV Branch head normally had a Post NPE meeting to discuss the findings etc. ( Gents, I just can't resist this next. At times the real world humor has a place. After extensive review of the full results, a pointed discussion continued on PA, and concern about the "wallow".   Totally unrelated, many months earlier an event occurred which resulted in me having a repeated direct relationship with Adm. Sheas, Chief, BuAer.. He just happened to sit in on our F8U revue, or maybe elected to. I don't know.   He was there.   At the ending, he turned and said (paraphrased) -"you people have a more detailed technical understanding of today's revue. That landing configuration sounds bad.   He turned to me and said,   -"tell me, in plain English words., how bad is it ? "   Duke looked at me, rolled his eyes, blinked slightly forward as to say "hey man, it's your ball". Without properly thinking it out, I just spoke out.   " Admiral, it sort of feels like a stick in a bucket of lard". There was about a three second pause, and then the place exploded ! . The results of that comment I thought I would never live down ! !)

Navy now pressed even harder, for full envelope NPE, and soon. Vought finally agreed, except for full V/n envelope. They just hadn't had time to properly explore the high Q points, particularly with "g". As one might expect, NPE 2 was to evaluate changes / improvements. What had been corrected / improved since NPE 1. Also, just possibly, was there something totally new that we had missed in NPE 1. On arrival for NPE 2 Vought scheduled a briefing summary, to tell us what they had done. Subsequent to NPE 1 BuAer agreed we should now feel free to openly discuss findings with Vought pilots; but only the pilots. BuAer also advised BAR Dallas so they could know fully what Vought knew. All, -PaxRiv, and BuAer, were extremely concerned re the PIO, and wanted to take every precaution in moving up the performance curve.

We then started flying.   No question ever arose as to the priorities on NPE 2;   PA flying qualities first, Cr flying qualities second, PIO third, -but with a big asterisk !   Duke spent by far the major portion of his first flight on PA flying qualities. I did exactly the same thing that p.m. We explored every possibility we could think of, and at the end of the day concluded between ourselves, yes, they were significantly improved, in all areas. The "wallowing" was dramatically reduced, and the PA directional stability was most improved. Stall characteristics were also improved, with a significant reduction in role off roll rate. It was still not worthy of full exploration without a spin chute, which no X plane had.   My flight that day was essentially a repeat of Dukes, but with more time in CR.

One aspect surprised us. As speed increased, flying qualities became steadily better. I don't mean the airplane changed configuration etc, but the "balance between stick-fixed and stick-free was increasingly compatible. By this time we had slowly worked up to 5.5 g, the limit allowed at that time. But, over-all, PA flying qualities were still definitely unacceptable.   We also found a way to induce the PIO. It had to start with an initial negative g. input   We could tap the stick from the back, even just lightly. Then move to correct and invariably it was an over correction. When you then reversed to correct the prior error you were already behind the airplane, and the PIO widened rapidly. Extremely rapid, just as fast as you could move the stick back and forth in a longitudinal mode. Try it, -you will find that, (despite your prior belief) you can move your hand back and forth two full cycles in one second !.

The morning of the second day I started to determine some maximum performance parameters, most important to Navy was V max. I worked my way up in IAS doing increasing roll rates to .95 M, Between 18 and 30 K at speeds of .85 to 1.01 would occasionally get an "aileron buzz" at large deflection positions. There was no aileron adverse yaw, just a slight intermittent "buzz". John Konrad said he had encountered it also, and they thought they had a handle on it.   I had worked my way, purposely, well to the North East, to head back towards Edwards, so that I could steady down level as long as fuel lasted. The EAFB radiosondes had shown a temp break at 37,000 ft so I used that. I leveled off heading S.W. and put it in "A/B" and let it go.   Speed finally stabilized at 1.34 M. on the cockpit instrument. (Recorded data below showed 1.344 M) With temp corrections, data in ale recording and ground monitoring agreed at 1024.2 mph.. Duke's flight in the p.m. was essentially a duplicate of mine. CONFIRM!. However, the temp was up a few degrees and his V Max didn't reach the earlier value.

We later sat down to hear Vought elaborate on what they had done. By far, the most significant, they had lowered the max height of the wing leading edge raise. They had tried four different positions, were still evaluating others, and had three more to look at..   But they noted this one item accounted for most of the improvement, particularly the significant increase in directional actions, i.e. both stability and control. They had determined how the PIO was developing, but had not yet developed a full understanding of it. They were considering various approaches to it. (Translation: "we don't yet know what the hell is causing it"!) They had noted the intermittent aileron buzz, were pretty sure they had traced it to a small mass balance in the inboard corner of the aileron, and were about to install modified ailerons to check it further. They had completed a new expanded computer program that would allow them to simulate the entire control system under various conditions all at once, instead of in each axis separately. They were starting to run it and were much encouraged by the results, thus far.

The subsequent Post NPE BuAer conference on NPE 2 results ended with a much improved view of the program. All could see a probable satisfaction, -IF. we resolved the PIO situation satisfactorily, and soon. Oh yes, there was one element of exuberance. USAF primary fighter F-100 was no longer the world's fastest fighter airplane .

Shortly after, Harry Brackett was trying for the 580 kt EAS point at 2700 ft. (-about 1,000 ft above the terrain). He "found" the PIO, and in less than a second the plane disintegrated.
=============
[Next: NPE 3 & 4]

589.
Free, open and unlimited use granted solely to:
(1) F8U Crusader organization members or participants in their direct personal activities
(2) SETP members in their direct personal or professional activities.
XF8U/F8U-1 Flight Test, NPE (Navy Preliminary Evaluation)

[NPE 3 & 4: Navy Preliminary Evaluation concludes]

NPE 3 was conducted at Dallas. It was a full program, of all elements, to again evaluate, and confirm changes / improvements. But, one item overshadowed most of the rest. The program was steadily moving along. Through the months of 3 NPE's etc. Vought was hi the final check out phase of the airplane to be used for carrier suitability tests, with it in the lab getting CV/Suit instrumentation calibrated and checked out. CV Suit Branch Head at Flight Test wanted their project pilot to get some time in F8U before starting the tests, and asked to go along on NPE 3. Director, FT Division concurred, and Maj. Jim Feliton (USMC) was assigned the program. He joined Duke and me on the trip to Dallas.

Duke and I completed our flights uneventfully. We agreed Vought had now done the job right. Even in PA things were now acceptable. I still had slight hesitance in a couple of areas, but felt they could be handled. We were prepared to give Director, FT Div. and Cdr, NATC our recommendation to advise BuAer to go ahead, dependent on resolution of the PIO situation.. But, one item, not associated with flying qualities we just wouldn't back off on. From day one we had been concerned about the lock holding the wing when it was in both up and down positions, -but we were particularly concerned about it when it was down. High torsion forces in high Q rolls, high G, etc --we just didn't like it. No doubt it was probably mostly psychological, but we just couldn't shake it out of our mind how many things had happened in aviation with violent results just because some individual, or a group, didn't think "X" could happen. We wanted SOME KIND of positive lock when the wing was down.

Prior to leaving Pax I had spent time with Jim discussing the airplane. I reviewed briefly our full test program and ended by expressing caution in the CR configuration at speeds above 350 knots. Later, in Dallas, just before his flight Duke and I both again noted for him to be cautious, and if it should happen, IMMEDIATELY, release the stick ! We created a flight profile that let him explore considerably, and part of it was static longitudinal, 300 to 450 kts at 15 K and 25 K. Most of his time was to be in PA. Jim took off, and we went to get ice tea or something. Roughly an hour later we got the call. Vought had just been advised by Texas Highway Patrol that a plane had crashed, Vought had lost touch with the airplane etc. etc. We had no word for an hour or so and then got a call that a hospital in a town not too far away had called and said they had a Maj. Feliton in, - said he had crashed, -had a broken leg, -but was otherwise O.K. Jim was returned, leg in a cast, and his first words were, - "MAN,! that G.D PIO thing is REALLY SUMP'N !!!". NPE 3 was terminated then.

Jim told us he was at 25K trying to steady down on 400 kts and 25K when he started to make a correction., He openly noted there was a series of "jerks" in positive and negative g, and then only silence. He said the nose was down about 20 degrees, and slowly going down and rolling to the left. He tried two or three times to correct it and got no response. By then he was upside down, and thought something might have happened to the wing, or aileron. He said he was absolutely shocked, -he looked out and there was no wing!. He looked the other way, and there was also no wing, no nothing !. By that time he had rolled nearly 360 degrees and was pointed nearly straight down. He didn't hesitate but pulled the ejection sequence lever. Sometimes good things happen. Everything in the ejection sequence worked! - and correctly!. Canopy, off ejection seat fired, (his leg hit the canopy and was broken), seat cleared and seat belt separated, seat pad pushed him away, chute opened and he came down O.K.. The fuselage had broken in two.

Some time a few weeks later during a high speed fly -by demonstration at Navy Dallas, the Vought Test Pilot accidentally "found" a PIO, while going south at 500 knots, 1,000 feet. The plane disintegrated, spreading junk the last 2000 feet down the North/South runway, and out a quarter mile into the lake. Again, the pilot was lost in a flash. All F8U aircraft were grounded.

NPE 4 was primarily validation of the PIO fix, Yes, we re-checked a few additional things. I wanted to re-check max roll rate in PA, but basically it was a PIO NPE. Vought had found a little known company called Texas Instruments, which made fantastically small force measuring instruments. I never knew the details, but they were made for the oil well drilling industry, and somehow used to evaluate well drill rotation speed, movement to/fro etc, -or something. I don't know the details, but they could make an accelerometer, sealed, accurate to "hundredths" of a measuring need, and put it all in a container only slightly larger than a large aspirin.

With some changes they had made some for Vought, who put one far forward in the nose, another far aft near the tail, let the two of them sense motion, and transmit it to a box, in hundredths of a second. Connie Lau, Vought Chief of Aerodynamics, scrupulously dedicated to his profession, converted them into "pitching bob-weights", connected to a central box. The central box took the two measurements, "balanced" them and just momentarily held up the flight controls, (just a "flash" in the hydraulic system) and hence, no PIO was possible. It WORKED. No test Duke and I tried could fool it. There were NO variations. Sudden short period vibrations were instantaneously damped for a split second. The PIO problem was then behind us. The XF8U/F8U 1 NPE Flight Test program was over.

Yes, it was over, - but it had extracted quite a price. The cost had been three airplanes, and two pilots. Nearly a third.. .From here on out the real job began. The people taking over the program from Duke and me with follow on tests had to make a flying vehicle into a machine fit for combat

They did One Damn Fine Job ! !

590.
During the reserve call up in 1968 Larry Clark flying out of VF 931 at Willow Grove, Pa. Dead sticked one into McGuire AFB. We had flown to Tangier target in the Chesapeake for strafing. On the return to Willow Grove, Larry had a flame out right over McGuire at about 35K. He dead sticked it in with no damage. I was part of the flight and everybody told him to get out. Not Larry, He flew a beautiful approach and landed without incident on the 15,000 ft RR. There was much discussion and even talk about grounding him. But he pulled it off from 35K and never even blew a tire

Bill Boardman

591.
About F-8 outer wing panels: during my first cruise in Oriskany as a Red Lightning, one of our aircraft damaged its outer wing panel The pork chops checked the inventory, and sure enough, the ship had one in stock RFI. It took a while to get it up to the hangar deck, as it was buried pretty deep in the hold. Open the crate, and there it was: a F8F Bearcat outer wing panel.

Bull Durham

592.
In answer to the request for information on trim only landings, one moonlit night aboard Midway on the '63/'64 WestPac Cruise, I was launched in an RF-8A. I was cruising around at 35,000'+ and after about 30 minutes, realized that the stick was frozen in pitch. Roll control was okay, but I could not move the stick fore or aft. My recall is that we were not within bingo distance, but that may not be correct. In any case, as the aircraft had no autopilot, I soon concluded that the trim would control the pitch while roll control was normal. Fortunately the approach was a Case 3 so that I could shoot a penetration and have a fairly lengthy distance to figure out the aircraft after it was dirtied up. As indicated earlier, the moon was quite bright aiding with the horizon, and the approach went without a hitch. I hadn't advised anyone, but after the landing, the stick was still frozen so I called a maintenance person up to demonstrate. Later, after the aircraft warmed up the stick returned to normal. It turned out that the stick damper had leaked all of the fluid out and at high altitude, in cold conditions, the remaining moisture, in the damper, had frozen the stick.

V/R, Roger Crim

593.
I was a Test Pilot in the Service Test Department at PaxRiver back in the early ‘60s. A lot of new and different airplanes were there during those days. I envied the guys in Flight Test and CarQual Departments doing some exotic test flying in the new aircraft.   However, I did have some good experiences flying over 25 different aircraft. My favorite project was trying to determine why the F8 flamed out when firing a sidewinder missile above 60K. You may ask why did we care?   The ‘powers to be’ wanted a defense against the Russian Foxbat that could fly at 70K and this was it!

I first worked on simulated dead stick landings on the Mojave lakebed and got pretty good at that. Next step was to ensure I could reach the lakebed after firing the missile in the range from above 60K. This worked ok. I also had a battery backup to help with a restart. The fun part was climbing to 40K then heading for the range in AB, gradually descending to 35K to pickup the Vmax of 1.9 mach, then zooming up at 45 degree climb, reaching about 70K, firing the sidewinder and then floating over at ½g. The engine did flameout from lack of oxygen from the large plume at that altitude. The engine did relight every time after descending below 35K.   I experimented with hitting the engine igniter switch, located inside the throttle quadrant, prior to firing the missile. This did not work at first, but after hitting the switch more than 5 seconds prior to firing the missile, it worked. This resulted in a fix that provided continuous ignition every time the weapons switch was turned on.

Most of these flights were relatively uneventful except for two that did raise my pucker factor. One was a problem with the space suit that was caused by my own negligence. When the engine flamed out at 70K I lost cabin pressurization that would cause the space suit to expand. One time I forgot to tighten one of the belts. When the engine flamed out at 70K, the pressurization was lost, my space suit started to expand and my head was pushed up to the canopy and the control stick was almost out of reach. My comment was oh s---. Fortunately I could reach it with my finger tips and was able to recover.

The other occurrence was the loss of elevon control upon return to base. Again my comment was oh s---. So far I had one successful landing for every takeoff with the F8, but this looked like ejection time. Luckily, I could control the attitude with trim tab. How many of you have attempted to land the F8 using only the trim tab. Another fun project was penetrating thunderstorms with the F8 and F4, but that is another story.

    Semper Fi,

        Ray Stewart

594.
In reference to the trim tab landings, they all seem to be nose trim events, but there was another that happened to me in VF-103, '63. Returning to NAS Oceana from an engine change test , I had a lockup of the stick lateral controls but the trim worked normal.. Nose was normal but I could not move the stick side to side. Rudder gave full response and weather was good......I took a long straight approach with a normal landing and rollout. Stick remained stuck for maintenance troubleshooting. Result was a "funk spring" that had worn a groove in the cylinder and the piston had gotten stuck . You remember the "funk
spring" ? RIGHT!
Red Best

595.
Upon returning to NAS Willow Grove, PA from a training flight, with about 1400 lbs. of fuel, the right main landing gear was locked up and would not extend. An emergency was declared. The tower asked for some time for the alert to mobilize the base for an arrested landing Morest.

I pulled up and “held” to a fuel lower fuel state than I preferred. I reentered the pattern with 800 lbs. On approach, with no knowledge of the Morest status, an S2F pilot insisting on his ATC clearance would not clear the air. I had to go around. This put me at a low state. I could not reach the coastline to eject now. My Morest would be a one shot deal and I had to count on no hook skip. The landing and arrestment were good, with the F8’s wing contacting the runway at zero ground speed. No other part of the airplane touched the ground. Just for drill, I tried to get out of the aircraft ASAP. I went over the side but my oxygen hose caught on the canopy rail, hanging me by my helmet. I pealed off the helmet which gave me a long scratch on the side of my face. The outer wing panel was the only change needed to make the airplane flyable.

L.S. (Pete) Kenney VMF 511

596.
I had an engine seize in an F-8J about 100 feet behind the boat after 20 minutes of looking at an oil pressure light. Crapped onto the 1 wire -sheer luck !

Pete Phelps

597.
Now I am the first to plead guilty to having a faulty memory but I sure don't recall having needles in F-8H's on the Hancock in 69 and 70. By the time I got back to old Hanna in 72 with the J birds we were so blessed. Between the needles and the P420, the night work in the J model went much better. For those that were there, you will remember the 68 cruise on the Hancock was a ramp strike disaster. Dink Alderink

598.
Know of one WOXOF ACLS landing. It was not an F-8, but an A-7, and it was flown by George (Spider) Webb. Spider is famous for other achievements in addition to this, as he has the record for most carrier landings. Ever.

We were in the Carrier Suitability branch of the old Flight Test division at NATC Pax River, doing ship cert on some boat or other, when the ship steamed into the only fog bank within many, many miles. George was indeed low-fuel, and the only other option to landing was ejecting and waiting for somebody to pluck him out of the water. I think George rejected this option because his smokes would get wet. So he coupled up and the system did its thing.

The PLAT picture was of cross-hairs on a gray background, then a tenth of second of Corsair square in the middle. 3-wire, I believe.

Probably not as iffy as you may think. We had been fine-tuning the ship's ACLS for several days. Our aircraft ACLS systems were as well maintained as any anywhere. We used backup ILS needles to monitor the performance of the ACLS, and they were pretty good until in-real-close, when the location of the ILS antenna on the fantail gave some pretty quick and curious indications.

But still, pucker up.

Spider, feel free to clarify or amplify anything I've mis-stated. It's not every day an attack puke gets heard on a real fighter pilot forum, so this is your chance.

Bull Durham

599.
Bull says it all correctly and I'll add, in case you're interested, that the landing was aboard USS Independence in the JAX OP AREA. I had already made a number of Mode I (coupled to touchdown) T&Gs when sea smoke started to get into the picture and increase rapidly. On the previous pass I had broken out at about 1/4 mile, so on the downwind I called paddles (LT "Blinky" Mears) and said I thought we'd better make the next one a trap. I don't really recall my fuel state, but I know it was getting pretty low. Hey, we were having fun and the ACLS was working fine for once.

The funniest part of the final pass was when CATCC told me to call the ball and I called, "Clara." Blinky radioed back, "You're soundin' good. Keep 'er comin'." He couldn't see me either. I had the ACLS flight director selected on the HUD and the CILS needles selected on the ADI. Both showed centered and centered, the ride was smooth, so I kept going. I stopped looking at the CILS needles and just concentrated on the HUD so I could see the ball and ship when I broke out. Blinky never made another transmission. Anyway, I finally saw the ball and simultaneously touched down. It was quite a surprise. Never touched the stick so I wouldn't screw anything up. Later, Blinky told me he finally saw me at a "very in-close position."

Bull's also right about the PLAT picture. In fact Approach magazine had three photos of that PLAT picture, I believe on the back cover, that just showed the cross-hairs, with nothing in the middle, another shot with a very faint image in the middle, and then the final shot crossing the ramp with a fuzzy A7 in the middle. And it was a 3-wire, on centerline.

And thanks, Bull, for allowing this fighter-attack guy to speak to some "real" fighter pilots. I feel so humbled, and honored, too.

600.
Old minds get kinda fuzzy, but I recall that Lt George Webb was doing ACLS testing in an A-7 off the East Coast. He was with the Carrier Suitability Branch of the Flight Test Division at Pax. The ship entered a rapidly expanding fog bank and George was below bingo fuel. He shot a hands-off ACLS approach to the ship in 0-0 conditions. He had confidence in the system since he had been shooting VFR ACLS approaches when they encountered the fog. Don't think he saw anything until he engaged the wire. Hope I have most of this right.

Bill Bauer

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