gatrtalz 15

Gator Tales - Page 15 - 1401 - 1500

A little line up correction.

THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

1401
Mo, you're correct. The first three sections of F8s were flak suppressors, the trailing three section of F8's were ftr escorts. The wx was scattered clouds (almost broken) the walleye impacted as the base of the thermal pwr plant with minimal damage. Mike Cater/Paul Speer if you're out there please weigh in.

Phil Wood

1402
I'm quite sure the first use of the Walleye was on 19 May. I was on that strike. Because we only had 2 attack aircraft (A-4s from VA-212) and 12 F-8 escorts, we flew in with the strike force from the Kitty Hawk and/or the Enterprise. The F-8s got 4 Migs that day and we lost 6 ( maybe 9) aircraft from the three carriers. (I can ID 6 lost and heard of 3 more). Kay Russell (VF-211) and I (VF-24) were the 2 F-8s lost. I heard after our repatriation from Hanoi in '73 that Homer Smith (VA-212 Skipper) led another Walleye strike the next day (20th) or the 21st when he was shot down and killed. I'm quite certain that the 19th was the first Walleye use as we were JCS directed on a day that an VFR alpha strike would otherwise not have been conducted because the weather was so crappy. Long time ago, but indelibly etched in my memory.

Bill Metzger

1403
More Walleye input. I asked my friend Marv Quaid, Homer Smiths XO in VA 212 during this period to offer his recollections. Paraphrased, Mo is pretty correct. The continued interest has caused me to check my log book and other records. VA-212 had Walleye capable aircraft, not all. VX-5 had not yet completed OPEVAL. Tom Taylor, VX-5, was sent TAD to assist. We launched a few at selected targets until we worked out how to be pretty sure of success. The first Hanoi TPP raid was scheduled for MAY 19. Homer lead the mission and the Walleye were not released on target. I forget why but there was that big MIG hassle. An attack on Bac Giang power plant was re-scheduled for 20 May. Homer and Taylor launched with flak support. Homer made one run and was hit by AAA sometime during the attack. He departed the area at max speed and very low. Shortly he lost control, did not say what and ejected. Taylor circled him and saw him standing in the field and farmers racing toward him. No chance of rescue. On the 20th we did a repeat of the mission of the 19th. I am not totally certain who my wingman was either Steve Briggs or Rex Rackowitz I really think it was Steve but I flew with both of them regularly. I lead us to the windows an as stated one went in and one hit the frame and the second into the boiler house produced plenty explosions. Tim Hubbard was hit in his turkey feather while in burner so But he got to a tanker off shore which lead him to the ship. When lowered his gear lots of JP came pouring out vaporized and caught fire and Tim ejected so fast it looked like the two events were simultaneous. There were no more Walleye trips to Hanoi. Marv Quaid

Paul Stephenson

1404
Bill Metzger is correct on the date misinformation. The first strike was on May 19 and not 5/17 as I previously stated. The second strike was on May 21st which was the strike in which I participated. The 5/21 strike was necessary because the two walleyes delivered on the 19th didn't do the job. Following the second strike the lights in Hanoi were OUT. The third strike must have been in July. Homer Smith was not lost on a Hanoi Strike, but on the Boc Yang (spelling) strike as I previously mentioned.

Note: The Hanoi TPP was an ideal walleye target as the wall with the slit windows faced west south west and was painted white. No one made a second run on that target; too many NVNs shooting at us. On the second strike I was the only plane hit - they shot off the cap on my vertical fin. I was NORDO after that although I could hear my wingman and the LSO (close range comm only)

Mo Wright

1405
Some corrections on the 19 May air losses list: Red McDaniel's BN (VA-35) was Kelly Paterson (not Anderson) and yes his was killed by the gooks upon capture. Also, the RA5 with Griffin & Walters which was shot down and were part of our strike force (they and their F-4 escort were the only 2 planes behind me in the strike force) so were to do BDA on the power plant (maybe Van Dien also?). I believe their F-4 escort was also shot down. And, Al Wattay's mentioning Jim Bell. He was a great guy and pleasure to live with in jail (never quit smiling). Jim passed away a few months back. Saw him last at our 40th reunion in May '13. In poor health at that time. Big loss- sorely missed.

Bill Metzger

1406
It is interesting how the stories change over time. I was the JO in Jim Vescellis' det and had flown the same mission a couple of days before he was shot down. I never saw so much AAA on any of my other mission. We heard through AI that Jim had landed near an 85mm site and was surrounded by the armed crew and that he pulled is 38 and they shot him. No one mentioned any radio transmissions at the time. I could be wrong as that was 47 years ago.

On of my A-4 buddies, Fred Fortner, is listed as having been shot down by AAA but at the time, the word was that he had been blown away by his on bomb: defective A344 fuse was the reported cause.

I have read several stories that are different from what was known at the time. I guess such efforts soften the blow to the family or allowed the Pentagon to retell the war stories to suite their needs.

Will Gray

1407
The RF8G loss because of strut explosion on cat shot (VFP-62) sounds like the loss of my squadron mate and roommate off the FDR in 1961.

Gary Offerman had been severely burned in a mid-air over Doctors Inlet just south of Cecil Field circa 1960. within one year he was back in the cockpit.

As Maintenance Officer I was on deck when upon cat tension the right strut exploded and the right wing dragged down the deck.

Just forward of FDR with right wing down Gary ejected. I have pictures of him as the ship passed. It shows that he had tumbled and the risers were up between his legs. He obviously struggled to find the release clips but was not successful, ship wake took him under.

At that time Rescue Helos did not put swimmer in water. After that accident the rules were changed.

I sent in all the parts of the strut to the Safety Center and only years after when I was reviewing all F8 AARs did I find that indeed the strut dieseled and after that nitrogen was used to service the struts.

And the pilot who replaced Gary was his brother-in-law John Dechant.

In those days one had to complete certain correspondence courses to be promoted. Dechant had not completed one of them, me all but one on Nuclear stuff.

His duffle bag was full of correspondence courses. A few day after I finished my last one, BUPERS cancelled the requirement!

P J Smith

1408
Gentlemen-hopefully-this may help clear some misconceptions regarding the May 19th Walleye Alpha strike into downtown Hanoi. I was on that flight, and after verifying the "event" via my personal diary, and then via my logbooks, along with some other obscure sources of fading recollections-here is my version of the May 19th flight which, surprisingly, is still very clear, in spite of the fact that it was 47 YEARS AGO-and-my palms still get a little sweaty thinking about it.

Some facts of the events that happened on May 19th, 1967. I know for sure it was THE FIRST MAJOR ALPHA STRIKE into downtown Hanoi, (at least for our Air Wing)-and I do remember that VA-212 was the only Navy squadron that had the Walleye at the time. The target was the thermal power plant located in or near downtown Hanoi-which was the FIRST major target IN Hanoi that was handed down by the JCS targeting gurus. I was Joe Ellison's wingman on that flight, configured as a "flak suppressor"-(6 Zunis and one Winder). As one sage soothsayer once said -"Suppressing flak around Hanoi was as useless as opening your canopy, and trying to pressurize the world." I certainly am not repeating anything that everybody doesn't already know -but suppressing flak on a multi-gun flak site with a Zuni was at best-nothing more than a fart in a windstorm. Incidentally, my "target flak site" that day was a 10 or 12 gun flak site on a small island out in the middle of a lake in "downtown"-with 6 proximity fused Zunis!

About 30 seconds from TOT for the Walleye shooters, we flak suppressors "detached" and accelerated ahead of the main strike group. I finally saw my target flak site exactly where it was supposed to be-, popped up, and made a fairly steep dive angle onto the flak site, and salvoed my six Zunis a lot lower than I should have, but was focused on doing as much damage as I could with what little I had to offer. The instant I pulled off of the target, a MIG-17 flew over my canopy about 200' or so-(going exactly my same direction)-I reached down, selected my ONLY winder, got a tone-and the MIG blew up right in front of me-with tons of debris exploding out of the fireball, which I damn near flew right through. That turned out to be Bobby Lee shooting at the same MIG from someplace behind me. Luckily, the Sidewinder knew the good guys from the bad guys, and in this case-got the bad guy. During all the chaos of the Alpha strike on that day-Phil Wood shot down one MIG, Bobby Lee got one, Joe Shea got one, and Paul Speer got one. We also LOST four on that same strike-including my VF-24 squadron mate Bill Metzger, who was Phil Wood's wingman. Bill Metzger also may have got a MIG, although after he shot his Winder, the MIG he was shooting at flew into a cloud-never to be seen again. Within seconds thereafter, Bill was hit by a AAA burst, and ejected. Those of us who were left, and were relatively unscathed, egressed from the area as best we could-and hightailed it back out, the way we came in-from the south.

As a side note- I had a copy (and may still have it if the mice haven't destroyed it) of the voice tape of that May 19th strike, which was all recorded-live-by the Fudd standing offshore near Haiphong -which was then relayed back to the Bon Homme Richard, and then relayed back (live) to the Situation Room in the White House. We launched zip lipped, coasted in feet dry well south of Haiphong, went straight west for a few minutes, then turned north straight up to Hanoi. As anyone would expect, within minutes of the target-all hell broke loose-in the air and on the radio. I would defy anyone to say they could decipher anything that was going on based on what they were hearing on that tape. I can only imagine the looks on their faces in the White House Situation Room as they tried to make out what the hell was happening by listening to the voices on the tapes-all of which were about 4 octaves higher than normal-and sounded like absolute chaos.

The May 19th Hanoi Alpha Strike, for our time and place in history, was a surreal event, to say the least. The "targeting", as we all know now-was done by a handful of folks who were absolutely directed by hack politicians as to what to hit-and when-ranging from "suspected truck parks" on Uncle Ho's "trail", to bamboo bridges, to thermal power plants. Little did we know, or realize, that this was just a mild precursor to what we see going on today in the Middle East debacle, particularly with the activities of ISIS, Syria, Iraq, and in the Afghanistan "Conflicts. " I for one, am glad I was there on May 19th, 1967, and am not fighting today's even more bizarre political WARS lead by even bigger political hacks than we had back in the 60's and 70's.

Remember-the difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.-said Albert Einstein

Although I can't remember which Navy fighter squadron Albert was in, I'm sure he was making reference to any war that was, or is being run by politicians. And, I'm sure he was thinking- after the THIRD Walleye strike on the Hanoi Thermal Power Plant, he once again, questioned the "genius" of being launched on a pitch black night to make a run over land, in our trusty F-8 Charlies, just to get near enough to Hanoi to see if the "lights were still on. " I know, because Joe Ellison and I did it. Did we go over land and head up to Hanoi at night, in horrible weather? Take a WAG-and "No" we didn't see ANY lights from where we were.

Ltjg. Einstein was apparently right- back in the Korean War, then right again in the Vietnam War-and he sure as hell is right today.

Jerry "Dog" Pearson

1409
We were in USS SHANGRI LA (CVA-38) in the MED when the issue of struts was big (had one strut fail on landing). We had -501 struts and the good ones were -525 (why do people remember this stuff?) We kept flying after checking the -501's by laying a straight edge on the barrel of the strut; if the barrel was straight with no bulges we kept going. We found some that were bulging so they got the new struts first. By the time I was in the fleet (1967), only nitrogen was used to service tires, pressure vessels and struts. The Air Farce continued to use compressed air for years. They had no LOX plants where N2 is a biproduct. Liquid N2 was used in the ships for many things, including freezing pipes down in the plant to act as a temporary valve for pipe repair. One of my projects in the Pentagon (OP-506G2) was OBOGS, or on board oxygen generating system, which was to replace LOX bottles in aircraft). I guess that technology is being used widely now. I don't know if the ships still have LOX plants.

Will Gray

1410
Circa '60-61 there were several cases of struts exploding. Dick Truly had one explode on Intrepid while taxiing out of the gear after arrestment (it wasn't a hard landing) in an F8-1E aka "B" -- fortunately the plane collapsed on the wing tip and no one was injured.. The squadron (VF-33) deployed with a/c that had more high energy landings than normal ones so they were tired, old airplanes.

Ray Donnelly

1411
There were seven cases of struts exploding during a launch of an RF8. Six resulted in an unsuccessful ejection. The successful launch occurred during a burner launch. As a result, all launches with a full load of fuel were required to be in burner. The fault of strut exploding was generally blamed on improper servicing of the strut. The one successful launch in burner allowed the aviator to power through the launch and get successfully airborne. The P4A/P22 engine in the RF8 has less thrust than the engine in the fighters. The P22 was the same engine as the P4A, just given a different name when they added such things as built-in starter probe. Sure beat hauling one around on a cross-country.

Scott Ruby

1412
Joe Klugg was killed with An exploding strut off Oriskany in 1970.

All F8's were being retrofitted with new strut and the RF8's were last to get them.

The Martin Baker lower ejection seat handle problem Jim Lusk had contributed to Joe's problem in that when he let go of the stick to eject the airplane rolled and the ejection was out of the envelope.

Larry Fischer

1413
Reading about the accident in 1961 when an F8 strut exploded on the cat shot, reminded me of the famous photo of a "Red Ripper" Crusader sliding down the deck with burning hydraulic fluid streaming from the ruptured stbd. wheel strut. I was in VF-174 when this occurred. I believe this was possibly the reason the Navy switched to a non-flammable hydraulic fluid.

Alan Peterson

1414
When Jim Vesceluis was shot down I was temporarily assigned from the photo Det on the USS Oriskany to Det D on the USS Coral Sea until a replacement could be sent from CONUS. One of my first task was to inventory and pack Jim's personal things to be sent home. Some ten years later I received a phone call from a person in Washington DC who said his office was gathering information on missing pilots/POW's. He asked me "since I was the one that had signed the inventory of Jim's personal gear if I remembered seeing any camouflaged-colored underwear?" I reported no and asked why. He responded that Jim was known to have one pair (maybe info from his wife): and if I did not see them during the inventory Jim must have been wearing them when he was shot down. This tied into a report that the caller had that stated that a pilot that had been shot down in the in the area, date, and time that Jim was shot down was observed to have been captured, stripped to his underwear
and beaten to death. This pilot was wearing camouflaged colored underwear.

Andre Coltrin

1415
Hydraulic Fluid. MIL-H5606 was the hydraulic fluid used in the Navy during my entire 30 years (65-95) it is mineral based and flammable, though there are several variations of the fluid. The business jet fleet still uses MIL-H5606 in some aircraft but many use SKYDROL or similar fluids which are much more fire resistant though they are a strong irritant to skin and tissue. These fluids are also known to remove many types of paint.

The big F8 wheel well fires were so spectacular because the tension struts were also the accumulators for the two flight control hydraulic systems, PC1 &PC2. A ramp strike that wiped off the gear also yielded a total three system hydraulic failure. The engineers wisely replaced the strut accumulators with accumulators located in the speedbrake well.

The RF8 nose strut was changed, bigger, stronger, longer stroke, in the late 60's. The change required a smaller nose tire diameter to fit in the wheel well and "horns" on the links from the wheel to the link forward of the strut, to prevent the strut assembly from picking up a wire when fully compressed. At full compression of the strut and tire the bottom of the strut could rub on the centerline PLAT camera fixture in the deck.

Jim Vescelius. I had not heard about the missing skivvies. I was involved in the inventory of his personal effects (sent everything to the laundry and folded it when returned, etc.) I do recall his wife, Jean, not being happy that we did not return his large collection of Playboy Magazines with his effects... Because I had to to look through all of his papers and letters to be sure nothing offensive to the family was there, I made it a practice of destroying all of my letters from home so no one would have to read my mail should I get bagged. I still follow that practice.

Will Gray

1416
The discussion on main gear struts dieseling brought back a clear picture of Hal Terry's very near death experience on the Shang during the 1964/65 Med cruise. As we transited the Straits of Gibraltar the Mistral was howling and the straits were acting like a funnel channeling a 50 kt wind outward toward the Atlantic. We had 58 kts over the deck with just enough forward momentum to provide steering capability with the ship's rudder.

The powers that be said, "Launch em" and it was a black ass night to boot. Hal Terry and I forget who his wingman was but I remember Ron Knott was observing in Pri-fly. I was on the platform with Ensign Jensen who, as CAG LSO, was waving what we all knew was going to be a very challenging recovery.

The Fighters were, as usual, the first to recover and Hal, an outstanding stick, was the lead and entered the pattern first. His approach was excellent given the conditions. As you can imagine with a wind of that magnitude the burble behind the ship was huge and the pilots needed to be very cautious in close because of the downdraft aft of the ship.

As Hal got within perhaps 400 yds of the ramp, his PC-1 and, therefore, his Roll Stab, quit and as he came over the ramp, he was correcting for a left wing down attitude and hit hard on the right main gear, which immediately Dieseled with what sounded like a five inch round exploding. This, of course, wiped out his PC-2 system and as he bounced back into the air and brought the nose up to climb in burner, the stick went stiff and he knew he had to eject.

I can still see him, in my minds eye, as he ejected still within the light from the "moon glow" red lights that lit the flight deck at night in those days. He did the usual forward somersault and his chute deployed as advertised. He swung down and entered the 20 ft. seas just beside the LSO platform. I was very concerned for him as the ship steamed past him and he disappeared into the night.

The aircraft, trimmed nose up, then began what was the strangest thing I have ever seen in aviation, as it climbed out in after burner, with no one inside. It then entered a series of hammer head stalls, falling off on a wing, and then regaining speed and climbing into another hammer head stall. All of this as the aircraft seemed to remain almost directly over the ship. Each time it would dive, it appeared that there was a chance it would crash into the ship and do some very serious damage.

This lasted for, what seemed like, ten minutes, but was probably more like two or three minutes. Finally the fuel was exhausted, the burner blew out and the aircraft spun into the ocean off the starboard stern quarter. In the meantime, Hal was struggling to free himself from his parachute as his bail out bottle was becoming depleted. He told me, many years later, that he experienced an " out of body", event and saw himself struggling in the water and was about to give up the fight, when a huge hand grabbed him from behind. A rescue swimmer from the Destroyer that was acting as plane guard that night had dived into 20 foot seas and swam out to Hal, about 200 yds, and saved him from almost certain death.

Hal returned to the Shang via Helo and the next day the Shang sent over a huge supply of ice cream to that destroyer. Had the right main strut not dieseled Hal would have boltered and perhaps been able to recover on board, but we will never know. Happened almost exactly 50 years ago so I may have some of these details wrong, but you all get the drift. It was one of those experiences that is for ever engraved in your mind.

Jim Brady

1417
Andre's summary of events that followed Jim ejecting are essentially the same as the information I received. Jim was a POW, and he was killed that same day. How death was administered was never really established as fact....my information indicated that he was captured (and I'll bet it was after he had "smoked" a few of the bad guys) taken to the city square and beheaded. In any case Jim went out the way he intended...for me, what he must have experienced, will always be incomprehensible.

Chuck Tinker

1418
Good memory Jim Brady about CDR Hal Terry's night ejection off the angle of the Shang. I thought it was "church" for him for sure. From Pri-fly it looked like the pilotless, new F-8E, was going to make a vertical landing on the Shang. I wanted to run, but where too? So, I just watched the the air show, afraid to move. CDR John W. Brown, X-skipper of VF-62, was the Air Boss in Pri-fly and kept the other airborne aircraft in the pattern calm. However, my roommate, Stew Seaman, said he almost flew in the water when the announcement came over the radio that there was a pilotless plane in the pattern.

Jim you have a good memory about this accident. As stated the pilotless aircraft finally crashed about 135 degrees relative to the Shang's heading.

As Jim said the the wind and seas were terrible that night, So, why were we flying? This was our first night in the Med and I am sure that the powers-that-be had to prove the old rusty Shang could do it. Competition can be a killer. Oh well, we survived (some of us) and for that I am thankful.

Thanks Jim for your LSO expertise. We pilots depended on you when the sea was rough or smooth, day or night.

Ron Knott

1419
Will Gray's description of burning hydraulic fluid in the wheel well makes sense and here's another possibility. There is a short piece of a large-diameter pipe visible in the starboard well of the F8K aboard Midway. That pipe is covered with what appears to be a neoprene sleeve. This short section in earlier F8s used to be bare, and when exposed could rub against conduits. As was explained to me at the time, the pipe carried fuel and I assume a sleeve was retrofitted to reduce chaffing. One of our fuel lines was abraded half-way through the wall thickness; and if it had failed, the next flight would have been colorful.

Here's more on burning hydraulic fluid. Crusader driver and scientist Paul Lillebo honchoed the Priority Chemicals Unit for California and contributed to the transition from PCB hydraulic fluids. Paul, industrial ingenuity, and fire-resistant Skydrol saved the day.

Pete Michael

1420
Should have checked logbook before "shooting from the hip"! The loss from strut explosion (and that is what it was) in May 1961 was an F8U-1P not an RF-8G. The RF-8G did not come along until 1965 and 73 F8U-1Ps received new reinforced MLG struts plus many other improvements. And as Will Gray stated the accumulators were internal not in the struts.

Another story from memory is that Joe Elmer, Sr had a strut failure on cat shot in F8 fighter type from Shangri-La within several months after our FDR AAR. I am convinced that since he had knowledge of the FDR event he continued to fly the bird until he could get a controlled ejection situation.

PJ Smith

1421
To say the "earlier F-8's" had strut problems would be an understatement. Most, if not all, of the contributed strut failure stories seem to involve a "loaded" strut, either during a cat shot or on a shipboard landing. When I was a "bug" going through VF-174 in the 1963 time frame, I had a strut explode while performing a run-up prior to releasing the brakes for a FCLP hop at Whitehouse. I don't remember the model of the airplane, but I do remember it was an early one. Reflecting the spirit and attitude of VF-174, I was given a ride back to the line, given another airplane, and off I went. My point is that an external load was not required to cause strut failure.

Kurt Schroeder

1422
I was in VF 62 on Shangri La when Joe Elmer had the strut problem. As I remember it, pri-fly and the powers that were wanted him to eject in the "controlled situation," but Joe said something to the effect that he had a full load of fuel and plenty of time to think this thing over. Also, I don't think it was an exploding strut. It seems to me that he lost the whole wheel, but the strut was intact. As I recall he made an arrested landing at Cecil without incident, and saved an airplane. It was circa 1962, so I can't guarantee the facts.

Don Ressel

1423
In 1957 us VF-154 "test pilots" had more than our share of landing gear problems prior to and during our first F8U-1 deployment. Our ORI was a near disaster and AIRPAC sent "Ace" Jewell to evaluate our ability to make acceptable carrier passes. He gave us all thumbs up and off we sailed to WESTPAC. Upon arrival at Yokuska our entire "stable" of Crusaders was sent to Atsugi where we waited for Vought mechanics to arrive and install new and improved main landing gear trunnions?. Many of us thought we'd never even make it beyond Hawaii. Ten months later, at the completion of the deployment, only 2 of 13 of us nuggets were still flying off the Hana Maru.

Some day, before Alzheimer's really sets in, I'm going to write a history of those years.How about a little help Crash? Speaking of Alzheimer's my doc says "Don't worry about it. You'll never know the difference."

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving,

Dave Winiker

1424
The F8U-1P was a variation of the F8A, which was renamed the RF8A, which became the RF8G when it was SLEPpes in the late 60's. At least 7 struts blew on the RF8 - the last being Joe Klugg in the early 70's on a cat shot. He did not make it. The struts were periodically upgraded throughout the life of the photo bird. I believe that was the last aviator/bird lost in a RF8 due to a strut explosion. Could be wrong.

Scott Ruby

1425
My strut on Shang in 1969 was attributed to both corrosion and it was a "Charlie" strut from the ships strut locker. Came apart on landing which resulted in a wire pulled out, spit the hook to a bolter and barricade - on 01 APR. All above to the best of my memory. [ed. note -- pix of Jay's barricade are on the Gunfighter website].

Jay Miller

1426
Shortest F8, non arrested landing, Cecil Field, Fl.

This was my second flight that day, 22 Jan 1965, since returning to flight status after a deck level ejection off the USS Independence 16 Oct 1964. I was on a night FCLP with full fuel, so on takeoff I left the plane in burner placed the gear up and lowered the wing, then extended the SB, turning and burning as I headed towards NAF Whitehouse for bounces in prep of our upcoming deployment to the Med for nine months. This would be our Squadron's fourth cruise in sixteen months; a nine month to the Med, a Middy cruise/week in NY for the World's Fair, a two month turned into a three and a half month North Atlantic turned south into a Mini Med, towards the end of which I ejected and now the FCLPs. After reaching 3200 lbs I headed to the break at NAF Whitehouse with a good head of speed, broke and pulled, again putting out the SB. As the speed bled to appropriate numbers I lowered the gear and raised the wing and almost immediately noticed a low PC light illuminate. I told paddles I had lost hydraulics and was heading for Cecil. After departing the pattern with wing up and gear down, I switched freq. to Cecil tower, told them I had a hydraulic problem and would need to make an arrested landing. I was informed no arresting gear was set up and it would take some time to set it up (25 -30 min). I knew VF-174 was bouncing guys on 18L so said I would take that runway, would have the LSO watch me and I would shut down and roll out w/o arresting gear. I touched down, a very short time later saw in both mirrors, the brightest yellow fires I'd ever seen. The fire equipment had stationed themselves at the far end of the runway anticipating where I would roll to a stop, however; with initially locked brakes, then burned off tires, then ground flat wheels, and finally pavement grinding into the magnesium gear, the fire. All the friction brought me to a stop well prior to the two thousand foot marker, so from touchdown to full stop, a distance of about 1200-1300 feet. And that's all I want to say about that.

Larie Clark

1427
Someone was recently talking about external things hanging outside the fuselage and it reminded me of a situation that happened in 1961 when our squadron VMF-AW-451 was getting ready for the first Navy/Marine Transpac. One of our pilots Arnie Tanzman (now deceased) was on a refueling mission hooking up to a C-130 Herc he caught the basket edge with his probe and when it snapped loose the hose wrapped around the cockpit and fuselage, then the basket got hooked onto the angle of attack vane. They could not break it loose and the hose was cut from the C-130 and Arnie had to return to El Toro with the hose banging around the aircraft enroute home the Angle of attack vane broke off and the hose dislodged from the aircraft into the Pacific without further damage. Arnie landed without further incident. The actual Transpac was in January 1962 with 20 aircraft and was completed without any problems. The only minor thing was we did it in Full Pressure suits and on one leg Denny Harvison (now deceased) ball bearings in his helmet neck ring came loose and he was unable to turn his head this happened while flying wing and his head was turned to the side, it made for an interesting landing at Wake Island which he did a great job. The success of the Transpac was a direct result of the superb planning and training done by our Ops O Don Stiver, we flew many profile missions to ensure pilots and aircraft were ready for the event. In our three years together three CNO Safety awards and over 20,000 accident free hours which was unheard of in the F8 community and during that time we operated off of the Hancock, Lexington, Coral Sea and Oriskany while our home bases were El Toro and Atsugi, the best three years of my life. We had two incidents, Mid Air collision near El Toro (myself and C-47 both landed) replaced left aileron and one main gear up landing at Atsugi (Willie Davis) minor damage to gear door and wing tip. Our Safety Officer (Pappy Gash).

Al (Animal) Ransom

1428
In 2011 it occurred to me (during the centennial of US NavAv) that nobody had asked the world champ tailhooker (2400 traps) how he did it. I was acquainted with Eric from way back--my Grumman Wildcat book--and we exchanged visits Here and There. Just a wonderful gent. He was 92 when he replied in that elegant hand-written script, and apparently he's still going strong.

He ran up a large % of his traps while proofing the wires on a bunch of US built escort carriers. IIRC every wire required 4 traps by a VF type and a VA type so each deck (typically with 8 or 9 wires) needed up to 72 specific traps for certification. Eventually he dispensed with an LSO ("batsman") because his technique was atypical, and he got more desired traps on his own. Approach speed was 10% above stall; when the desired wire disappeared under the nose, he landed the aeroplane.

BTW: among other things, Eric was the first to make a carrier arrested landing in a pure jet--DH Vampire on HMS Ocean in late 1945. He admitted that he was "desperately keen to beat the Americans." Made many-many friends here during his Pax River exchange tour. He was airborne when Marion Carl jumped out of the prototype AF-1 Guardian and thought Marion had gone in with the a/c. From Eric's perspective the chute opened too close to the water to be seen.

Barrett Tillman

1429
I went through VT-26 in the F-11 in the fall of 1966. In my 25 hours (think it was) I thought no plane could possibly have a better feel than the Tiger. I recall the fuel system had a three (3) and a five (5) gallon pair of tanks in each intake "cheek" and there was a 50 gallon tank in the vertical fin (above the after burner on that all powerful J-65, ha ha). there was no fuel in the rudder itself, only in the vertical fin. I never got over applying opposite brake when turning (right rudder -- left brake) to keep the nose gear from going past its limits, requiring someone to put a towbar or such on it to get it back into limits. It was also interesting to me that the MLG was shrunk to go into the wheel well. Great machine lacking a great motor. A J-52 (P408) with a burner in the Tiger would have been amazing. Of course they did stick a J-79 in the F-11-F1F I guess it was, setting the speed and altituede record on the same flight but my memory fades a bit so that may not be correct. In any case I thought the F-11 had the greatest feel of all the jets, like riding a bicycle. I remember my first contact with the Crusader and its thick, heavy feeling stick and how it wallowed across the Wells Unit ramps on the ramp. I thought my goodness what a pig when thinking back to how the Tiger felt. That was all washed away on FAM-1 when it was apparent I already had some roll control even before any indicated airspeed rolling down 24R at Miramar in MIL with Jerry Unruh chasing me. After getting airborne and cleaning up, I realized that the F-11 was a toy and the Crusader was one STUD HOSS, never changed my mind but the Tiger did have the best feel. It was just that the Crusader had POWER, amazing aerodynamics, and feel.

Will Gray

1430
This is in response to Dave Winiker's request for confirmation of the F11F Tiger's fuel system question. The tiny Tiger did have fuel stored in every possible nook and cranny. Not in the rudder however, but in the vertical fin. We had the impression that it was about enough for start and taxi for takeoff. Short legs but a sweet flying machine, Tiger was an apt name for it.

A Martin-Baker rep had briefed me carefully about seat inspection on this bird when I was checking out. A certain run of webbing had to be either over or under another or you wouldn't separate from the seat on ejection. The Martin Aircraft company were using a few Tiger prototypes as P6M chase. When that program was canceled in 1958 these were transferred to TPS. When I went to pick the first one up, my preflight ended immediately when I discovered that routing to be wrong. The riggers told me that they had always done it that way. They learned then that that was the reason their chase pilot rode the seat into the Chesapeake when he had to leave one from 40K or so.

I wish I could remember that pilot's name. He had been a contractor student at TPT Class 17. Early for Class 18, I had gotten to make several hops with him in the UF-1 that had been brought in for him.

History note: "Test Pilot Training" became "USN Test Pilot School" sometime in 1957.

Luft Pfeiff

1431
Virtually certain the pilot of the F-11 with the missing wings was Marine Capt Ron Thompson. I was a NavCad and he was an instructor in VT-26 Beeville, late 1966. If memory serves, he lost his life not long after training for the Blues.

John Allsup

1432
I was at Danang, off the Hancock, in 69 or 70 try to get a ride to Cubi and then on to Osan to freeze my butt off (it was mid Dec) for six weeks as the 7th Fleet rep to the 5th Air Force.

I saw Tom Hogan, who I had known in VFP-63 and was then flying RA-5s. Found out he was headed to Cubi but without his back seater. So I asked if I could fly over with him. He said no, I only have one seat.

That was very true. It turns out that his back seater had ejected during a night carrier approach.

Jerry Kuechmann

1433
I remember reading several accounts of the wing coming off of the F8U Crusader. The wing trunnions were placed at the balance point of the forces on the wing at all design conditions, so that the actuator for the incidence change could be very small and not have much work to do.

I did design work on the 4,000-hour wing replacement for the original 2,000-hour wing. I feel sure the new wing was ordered by the Navy because it was so easy to swap them out.

When word came back to Vought that the Nam pilots were raising the wing in dogfights, Sol Love (chief engineer) ordered a check of the actuator bolt. It had a large safety margin at design loads, but he still ordered the bolt to be increased by one increment of diameter (so we heard).

I have been thinking about the sizing of the actuator and the bolt. It seems to me that the whole arrangement should have been greatly over-designed to allow for unexpected loads that could tear off the entire wing. Surely the huge trunnions did not fail until the wing's angle of attack resulting from failed actuators/bolts greatly overloaded them ...

Does anyone know what kind of maneuver or other condition resulted in the loss of the wing? I sincerely hope the unlucky pilots were able to eject and save their lives!

Also, does anyone know what Vought's response was to the loss of the wing? I hope some of your F8 drivers will be willing to enlighten me about this whole variable incidence design situation. I was surprised to learn from this blog that catastrophic losses of the wing occurred!

Garland O. Goodwin

1434
The only incident of a lost wing was at Cecil Field in 1963/64 with Beaver Heiss as the pilot. I believe TR Swartz was flying with him that day and it would be good for TR to respond since he has a much better understanding of the incident than I do. Beaver had gone to VF-174 as an IP after leaving VF-62 and Sea duty.

Jim Brady

1435
While enroute to Westpac and Yankee in early 1967, a flight of VF-162 Superheat F8E's was strafing the spar towed by USS Oriskany. During a low level pull out from about a 30 degree dive, LT Lee Prost lost his wing. The nose of the Crusader went sharply down and Lee had no chance. The wing fluttered and appeared to stay in one piece. You could probably get more info from Black Mac McDonald on the event.

Later in that cruise, flying an F8C with VF-111 Sundowners, I had the opportunity to fly a combat mission with the wing unlocked. I recycled the wing several times, but the unlocked light stayed on; though the actuator handle would go down. My wingy had radio failure and I signaled him to land on the recovery that immediately followed our launch. I passed my TARCAP mission to John Hellman in exchange for his BARCAP and intended to remain feet wet until recovery. Unfortunately, we lost two A4s on that strike south of Hanoi and RESCAPS were attempted. At one point, I was the only guy in the air with enough fuel to go back in where we thought Hartman was down. I picked up a second emergency beeper before I reached Hartman's position. That turned out to be Larry Duthie. During my hour of feet dry over the hot area, I violated the NATOPS 220KT limitation for wing unlocked constantly. One maneuver at 350KTS and 4.5 G to avoid a SAM and one negative G pushover to avoid a cloud of 57MM.

I never heard of anyone raising the wing in a dogfight with MiGs! If anyone ever considered raising the wing over a hot SAM area, in my book he would qualify for the [insert your favorite president] administration.

V/R Dick Schaffert

1436
2 low altitude high speed wing departures I remember. 1970 Jim Cannon returning to NKX from El Centro hit an mountain updraft and around 1968 a VC 10 F-8 lost it wing making a simulated missile run on a surface ship. I saw the frame by frame photos taken from the ship. The wing seemed to fail from the leading edge and peel back with fuel spewing out as it departed. Neither pilot ejected.

Dave Woltz (Bluto)

1437
While I was a replacement pilot in VF174 in late 1958 during an afterburner take off a student failed to get his wing down as I recall and compounded the problem with PIO (pilot induced oscillation) and at high transonic speed not long after takeoff the wing came off. Doc Townsend was the safety officer and briefed us that the pilot probably experienced an instantaneous 60g's. He believed that the poor fellow's blood vessels were probably ripped off his heart and died instantly. Someone may have a better recollection of this event. The next six years as I flew the plane I do not recall hearing about another such incident.

Circa 1959 John Anthony was in the banner gunnery pattern at Gitmo and at the reversal (1.2 mach) half of the UHT came off. John ejected at or near supersonic. He was somewhat beaten up but was ungrounded soon after that. One or more people in the flight observed the separated panel and believed it to be a UHT floating down. After some discussion the observers were not sure whether it was a UHT or possibly an outer wing panel. No one got a close look at the aircraft or the separated aircraft panel.

Roger Box

1438
During my cruise to the Med circa 1961, my squadron VF-11 - the world famous "Red Rippers" - was offloaded from USS Roosevelt to NAF Rota, Spain for the duration of the cruise. During that time we flew a lot of high and low altitude gunnery. On one of the high altitude (30,000 ft) gunnery flights, I was on the perch awaiting roll-in as Neil Yeomans was completing his reversal ahead of me. Immediately following his reversal, probably just slightly supersonic, I saw his wing separate and slowly spin like a boomerang as it descended. The fuselage then headed downward like a dart into the Med. He "may" have felt a little sucked at the reversal, and this might have been pulling a little too hard. I and others in the flight who saw it happen called for Neil to eject, but got no response.

Jim Roberts

1439
Further on the F8 Wing departures from the aircraft. I meant to say in my email that Beaver Heiss's death was the only one that I personally had any exposure to. Again TR can shed much more light on this than I, but Paul Gilchrist was our Safety Officer at VF-62 at the time and I think he went to the crash site. He told me that Beaver was still seated in the cockpit intact. This AAR occurred after the wing came off in the break. The aircraft fuselage landed in the enlisted mens recreation yard and remained largely intact. The theory was the Beaver pulled a huge amount of negative G when the wing let go and broke his neck up against the Canopy. This is my recollection after 51 years so please forgive me, TR, if this is incorrect.

Jim Brady

1440
On the subject of the F-8 wing coming off, sometimes it stayed on when it really shouldn't. I was flying an 'H' on a hop out of VX-4 in April 1970. The setup was a simulation of a tactic the N. Vietnamese were using where a Mig-17 or two would engage and a Mig-21 would blast through the fight looking for a shot. We had an A-4 engaging two F-4's with the Crusader playing the part of the Mig-21. As I got into the fight I was about 45 degrees nose up left turn, fast, on one of the F-4's. The F-8 suddenly went into max rate right aileron rolls. I turned the stick loose but quickly knew it was not a departure. As the Crusader continued the rolls and the nose dropped below the horizon the full left controls I had in slowed the roll rate. Got some control back and was able to maintain about 30 degrees right bank with full left everything in. I could see both wing spoilers up. Flew it around for awhile, talking it over with the squadron and couldn't come up with any way to fix it. So, (here's the D.S. part) I figured if I could raise the wing it might change everything. Only problem was below 280 knots the airplane would roll over again. So, about 280 knots I raised the wing. The Crusader snap rolled as the left flaperon went to full down and the right stayed up. But the wing stayed on. I put the wing back down, got the partial control back and worked it out over the mountains near Palmdale and ejected OK.

Several Crusaders had been lost to the same problem but I think mine was the first one over land. Cause of the event was a left hand nut in the aileron/spoiler interconnect rod being safety wired the wrong way allowing the nut to back off at which time the hydraulics would drive the aileron and spoiler to full travel up, which is past normal full up. The squadron that owned the airplane before us had pencil whipped the inspection.

Worst part of the whole thing was that I had a gun camera and was tracking the great Mugs McKeown when this happened. Forgot to take the camera when I left the airplane so Mugs won the debrief and remains unbeaten to this day.

John Laughter

1441
Original F8 wing fatigue life was 2000 hours. Navy had to buy 4000 hour wing to extend service life of the F8.

Higher G loading on wing was on the large structural hinges and only minimal loading on the wing actuator. As I recall the actuator was increased in diameter along with some changes in configuration to reduce the effects of salt water corrosion.

LTV position on using wing incidence was that it was imperative that you get the wing back down and locked prior to exceeding wing up structural maximums. It was not recommended!

I was in VF-174 when the Nugget lost the wing right after take-off in pilot induced PIO. This AAR was a justification for a two-seated F8.

This guy should have never been in an F8 by himself. I maintain that there were many other similar situations.

During this tour I was standing outside the hangar when TR and Beaver hit the break, oil cooler doors open and really whistling DIXIE!

I watched the wing separate and the burner light, but the fuselage just aimed upwards but settled near the main gate at Cecil Field. Fortunately no one was on the recreation field where it hit. I think that the culprit was stress corrosion, but I do not remember where??

And believe it or not I was in the gunnery flight well above and behind the Red Rippers who were qualifying for both 20 and 30 thousand feet gunnery. I was asked by Skipper Jay Arnold to come and be official observer to sign off on the conditions of the shoot.

I watched as an F8 pulled off the banner and the wing came off and assumed the descent of an oak leaf trajectory to the sea.

The fuselage just went straight in. And I believe that most would agree with Doc Townsend that the pilots were incapacitated by negative Gs in this and the nuggets PIO AAR in VF-174.

P J Smith

1442
In 1968 (or '69) Jim Cannon (VF-124 RAG at the time) had a wing come off in a high speed, low level flight from Miramar to Yuma, early in the morning, while ferrying parts to a gun det in Yuma. The accident report said that at low level, a strong mountain wave, rolling over a very low hill (couple hundred feet high near Borrego Springs) caused the force that ripped off the wing. The accident report said the loss of the wing caused an immediate 50+G negative force on the aircraft. There were very few remains as I remember, but one curiosity apparently was that the investigation crew found his Rolex still working.

In the late 60's and early '70's it was said that if one very carefully raised the wing lock just a fraction, the spin droops would extend, without actually unlocking the wing. That done, the Gator would turn with the best of them, albeit with a 250 Kt limitation. In 1972, the electric spin droop actuation switch was added to our birds in VF 24. I don't think it was suggested protocol, but I tried it; spin droops out - but wing still firmly locked down - and could turn as well as the A-4Ms that we had in the air wing, especially with the afterburner going. I think the spin droop switch had a counter with it, which, along with the G-meter would rat you out if you used it. CO Snake Morris or Tom Najarian could probably verify the new arrangement!

Litning
Pete Phelps

1443
Ref Beaver Heiss wing loss, 1963 at Cecil.

I was a FNG, so if TR will jump in and correct my recollection as a FOG, it would help.
As I recall, Beaver was the tow pilot for a gun hop. He came by, dropped the banner, and exited the pattern.

Then he returned in the break and at the break, the wing departed. The a/c landed in the softball/baseball diamond just inside the gate at Cecil. The recollections included the a/c going in and out of burner but the docs said the g forces were so great he was dead at separation and his body was flailing about the cockpit. Hence the in and out of burner.

Somehow I recall "they", the ubiquitous "they", said the wing lock lever was in the "unlock" position.

Duffr
Denis Duffy

1444
Beaver Heiss' accident sounded familiar from John Nichols' recollections so I checked. He was interviewed by naval historian John D Sherwood for "Afterburn," a series of NavAv profiles of the Vietnam era. John, TR, and Dick Oliver (a Blue) arrived at the scene, the ball field. John said the fuselage was intact with the nose on 3rd and the tail on 2nd, sitting upright. He opened the canopy and unfastened Heiss' mask, about to exclaim that Beaver was the world's luckiest so-and-so...and realized he was dead. I'd only recalled John saying that LTV computed the instant G onset at over 100 but the book says 176; fatal spinal compression.

Pirate regarded Oliver as one of the finest sticks ever, killed when his F-11 crashed from low level in a Canadian airshow, 1966.

Barrett Tillman

1445
Add to the wing separations. I was in a det to Yuma from Moffett, as a FRP in about '61. Kermit Jackson pulled off at the tow plane and the wing came off. Everyone calling for him to eject but of course he didn't hear any of that. He said he put in spin recover this way and then that way and over again. The fuselage broke off just aft of the cockpit. Ejection was successful. I was not on that flight but someone remembers more I'm sure.

Russ Bortnem

1446
Garland, onboard Oriskany in 1967 while participating in our pre-cruise work up/ORI, the ship was towing a sled and VF-162 had some aircraft in a pattern shooting at it when the wing of one of the a/c, F8-E, came off in the pull out. The pilot was killed. He was not known to overstress aircraft and as far as I recall that information was included in the accident report. As an aside, I was amazed to see one of our pilots raise the wing in a slow speed sizzors! This, well after the accident mentioned above.

Cheers, Ron Coalson

1447
I was Lee's squadron mate and up on deck pre-flighting in anticipation of my turn on the towed spar. I was able to hear the other aircraft firing and see the pull-out of the planes already in the pattern. I had never been so close to an air-to-ground pattern before and took a moment to step out from under the wing of my aircraft in order to get a clear view of the entire run from roll-in to pull-off. I was especially interested in seeing what the guns looked like while they were firing. The plane I selected to watch happened to be Lee Prost's aircraft.

Exactly as he flew through the altitude where he should begin firing, the wing instantaneously disintegrated in a huge cloud of white fuel vapor and tiny metal pieces best described as chaff. There was little or nothing left of the wing. It looked like an explosion except that there was no fireball.

I am quite sure the failure did NOT occur as the result of a over-g during the pullout since Lee had just reached the proper altitude to begin firing. After the wing left, the fuselage, seemingly intact, began several rather slow half gainers as it rotated backwards. I didn't see any violent movement when the wing left the aircraft. The nose gradually went up, not sharply down, and why wouldn't it pitch up? The aircraft was in balanced flight during the run and when the wing left, the only pitch forces acting on the fuselage would have been the positive (nose up) moment supplied by the UHT which an instant before had been counter acting the negative pitching moment associated with all conventionally cambered wings. In other words, loss of the tail would produce a pitch down (those who have lost UHT authority know all about this) while loss of the wing would produce a pitch up.

In any event, I distinctly remember saying "Eject!, You've got time to eject. Eject! Eject!." I'm not sure if I was saying this to myself or yelling it out loud, but I still remember to this day how long it took the fuselage to hit the water. As I replay the scene in my mind and count time as I do so, I'd estimate three or four seconds, followed by a prolonged period of little pieces of the wing fluttering down.

I remember this scene as if it happened moments ago. It's burned into my memory and I'll never forget it.

Bob Walters, Pagan

1448
One more F8U-1 wing loss story. 10-10-'62 in VF-191 on board CVA-31, Bonnie Dick, 100 mi off coast of Hong Kong. Merle Gorder, CO, Jack Snyder, XO. Main gear wheel lost on 1st landing, hook spit out #3 wire, bolter. Barricade landing, hook spit out #2 wire, thru barricade off angle into the water. Wing separated on impact. Pilot exited cockpit about 40' down.

Don Jordan

1449
One more anecdote on Beaver Heiss' wing loss in the break at Cecil.

That was the day I drove in to VF-174 from Beeville Texas with my brand new wings and butter bars (Former NAVCAD). Not the best first impression of my first choice fighter. That stayed with me for years.

Brillo
Joe Phaneuf

1450
The RF8G wing was very good to me: am alive because of its toughness. I was on a photo run at 3,000' over Hai Phong for some BDA, got my photos of the bridge and harbor in the middle of a lot of AAA, could hear the bullets going by. I decided it was time to turn east and get away. At 700KIAS in burner, I put in a LOT of right rudder and aileron with a whole bunch of back stick to get it turning. I lost 200KISA in a 90degree turn. Gross over stress (G meter was pegged during the whole roll and turn). Tunnel vision to near blackout. I got out of the bullets and returned to the ship. I wrote it up for over stress but they found nothing. Later the det was going to chow (always ate chow as a group: our APM) and saw my bird in the hangar by the ladder we were on so I reached out and gave the port wingtip a pat: it rattled so I grabbed it and gave it a tug:moved a LOT. The internal ribs and stringers were all broken from the turn. It must have bent upward a long way in that abusive turn, but it saved my life. Never saw that much AAA agin and three days later my O-in-C was bagged on a similar mission over Hai Phong. Speed is life and the Crusader had all that. Seventy years old now and I can still see it as clearly as when I was 22 getting my first experience with the "expansion of time" feeling that comes with real fear. The camera operate lights were blinking at me at what looked like about 1/5th of the actual speed. You don't forget things like that.

Will Gray

1451
Wing Off during 30K gunnery at Yuma October 1961 with VF 211---I lost one just after the reversal at about 1.3 mach pulling 4-5 G's. The aircraft went into terrible gyrations which I interpreted as a spin and went through spin recovery to 10K when I ejected with no problems. At that point all that was left was the cockpit as the engine, tail and most of the fuselage had fallen off. It seems that the starboard outer wing panel had folded resulting in a roll that took the wing off. The board determined that the wing fold mechanism was miss rigged and was not mechanically locked (even though the locking handle and the red flag was down) which started the breakup sequence. There was a similar event had by a marine at Yuma about the same time which led to the wing fold mechanism theory. CDR Bill Russell lead the Investigation team and CDR Herb Poorman was the CO and leader of the flight.

Bill Boardman

1452
My take on Beaver Heiss and the wing loss/fatal event.

Beaver came to VF 174 from VF-62. He and Dick Oliver ware plow backs in Advanced Training, went thru the Rag with flying colors, had their first tour in VF-162 then reported to VF-174 as IUTs. Both were exceptional aviators and officers. Dick was the safety officer at time of the accident, did the AAR and all the staff work of coordinating the inputs from witnesses and LTV, I thought the process was well done, as did his reporting seniors and reviewers. Dick went on to become a Blue Angel and flew into the water during an airshow at Niagara Fall. A sad loss, Dick was the original Mr. Smooth and a great piano player.

Beaver was assigned as a tow pilot for a gun mission off the coast. I was the leader, tow escort, with 3 other "bugs". U all remember the drill, the tow taxis out, hooks up and does the burner go leaving the wing up, 170K., long enough to get the rag clear of the runway and obstacles. Then head out over the (?) inlet for the restricted area. We did a spacer run, then 6 hot runs going east, a reversal, and 6 runs going back toward the coast. All uneventful. The birds were known shooters with the time circle checks noted in the yellow sheets.

Beaver started a descent and crossed the coast at 2000'. There were some power lines near the coast and the briefed tow minimum altitude was 1000'. The tow descended to 700' and I coached him back to 1000'. Odd, I thought, as Beaver was a perfectionist. We proceeded west to the drop area just south of Rnwy 27, I joined for a left turn and entry to Rnwy 36. Briefed speed to be 450 K, oil cooler doors open and a roll and pull simultaneous break. We leveled for the break, tenderly working the pitch trim to slightly nose down, (old F8U-1s), no turbulence, I was positioned in the typical formation aligning on the star.

He did a head nod and rolled. I rolled and pulled and immediately had to bunt up to avoid a collision. Throttled back and to my amazement saw the Crusader WITHOUT A WING. His head was slightly down, left hand on the throttle. I transmitted "Beaver your wing came off, eject-eject" several times. We hadn't changed heading but a few degrees, his F-8 continued to slow, stayed level, then descended nose up into the rec area and after what we thought were burner lights, and settled tail first onto the ground. All later concluded the burner lights were really compressor stalls, the old P-4 was starved for air.

I and others raced up to the crash site to see the F-8 with minimal fuselage and cockpit damage, no fire, and Beaver slumped in the cockpit, dead.

Witnesses taxiing out saw and heard the wing separation, Phil Craven said it was a normal high speed break but there was a loud clap like thunder when the wing separated.

The wing was recovered nearly whole and spread out in a hanger bay, the thing had a sinusoidal wave to it, decreasing in amplitude toward the tips.

The AAR board concluded that initial cause of the accident was inter granular corrosion of the wing incidence lug. The scenario postulated as thus; a rolling pull, the lug fails, the wing starts up, the fuselage bends down as the increased AoA generated "G" increases, the wing hinges fail, the G is gone, the cockpit on the end of the long pole is subjected to a horrific positive G force as it flexes back, which incapacitates the pilot. It was said the autopsy revealed the spine penetrated the brain most likely at the time of ultimate wing failure. I was transmitting to a dead pilot.

There was much speculation on the cause of the wing separation; a rolling pull, excess "G", or wingtip stall resulting in a shift of the center of lift moving forward of the wing hinge line, etc, but LTV and the AAR board stuck with the lug failure. I never was convinced of the conclusion.

Beaver's wife Janet sued and won a judgment against the Navy and Chance Vought, and the Navy changed the distribution of AAR copies from all F8 squadrons and operators to sufficient copies for higher review only. At least we saved some paper and copy machines.

PJ, you may have something to add. TR.

TR Swartz

1453
As an earthbound observer I stood at the NE corner of the hangar along with W.O. Morris Terry. We heard the flight coming and turned to watch what was very accurately described by TR. I also had thought that burner light attempts had occurred. However, AAR reported that these were compressor stall indications. I believe that and I also accept that stress corrosion was probably the culprit! I read many other AARs where the parts were recoverable and were analyzed, corrosion could reduce the strength of a part and could be seriously compromised by salt water exposure.

I worked for a very fine Aircraft Safety Engineer who always reminded me that you can design an airplane for simple minded peeps, but not idiots, those were not his actual words but think about it? The hold-back fittings that were once used to break at the right pressure for each type aircraft were designed such that they would not fit in any other aircraft. Guess what, that young man on the flight deck found a way, more than once! Please! Those young men kept us flying, I have utmost respect for most of them!!

More about wing failures:

I firmly believe that the wing failures in the gunnery pattern were caused by a combination of factors,

Flying thought the burble of the tow plane and target subjected the a/c to momentary high G loading at high airspeeds and if A/C had been in salt water corrosion environment the structural integrity would have been compromised.

And for those who accuse CV of designing the original F8 wing for only 2000 hours:

NAVAIR specified the fatigue life based on past utilization of Navy fighter aircraft.

One of the better installations to better determine Naval A/C utilization were the recording devices installed in the wheel well which would indicate what really occurred on that flight vice what pilot reported on yellow sheet!

PJ Smith

1454
Al Frucci had a separation during a hassle just north if Tokyo around October 1960 while stationed at Atsugi with VMF-312. I don't remember the findings of the AAR but he did get out safely and came down right through to roof of a police station.

Bob Wiedemann

1455
There was no wing separation on F8Es (FN), in flight, there was one when a very rapid alert pilot took a turn on the taxiway at very high speed, and the left wing touched the ground and all broke loose... No take off after that, alert ruined!

Jean-Pierre Robillard

1456
Regarding wing separations and the resultant forces on the pilots involved; I am struck by the different outcomes. In all cases the aircraft naturally went in, but the AARs have noted aircraft proceeding along (for a short while) as a projectile, before aircrew ejection; but also AARs that talk about 50/60+ negative G's on the pilot; completely incapacitating him.

My Aero MS degree is older than my wings, but I am surmising that the few successful ejections recorded came after wing separation in predominantly 1 G flight - pretty rare since no "exceptional" load forces were being applied to the wing at the time; so why would a wing fail here? The wing separations that are indelibly etched in our memories are those that occurred in high(er) G maneuvers that resulted in immediate 50, 60 + G loads on the pilot. The laws of Physics and my Aero education don't explain (to me) how 5-6 G's on the airplane, followed by wing separation, could magnify to 50/60 Gs on the pilot. Are we really talking about "Moment" here; where the distance from the pilot back to the aerodynamic center multiplies the G force on the airplane to the location of the pilot?

Heady stuff here! Probably too much for our green "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" manual. Anybody know "for sure"?

Pete Phelps

1457
after seeing discussed all of the wing separations in the Crusader and seeing your interest also, I have compiled a list, using as a starting point, all the info on the blog recently. The following is what I have come up with. Anyone who has more/better/additional information please forward. Also, if the BuNo's of these aircraft could be identified it would be much appreciated. Hope this helps.

Pilot    Squadron    Date    Location

Bill Boardman    VF-211    Oct61    Yuma
Beaver Heiss    VF 174    1963    Cecil
Kermit Jackson VF-124/VF-154?    1961?    ?
Lee Prost    VF-162    6May67    Oriskany
?    VF-191    10Oct62    BHR/Hong Kong
Neil Yeomans    VF-11    1961    Rota, Spain
Jim Cannon    VF-124    1968/69    Enroute NKX to Yuma
?    VC-10    ?    ?
?    VF-174    1958    ?
Ron Thompson ?    late 66    ?
Al Frucci    VMF-312    Oct 60    Atsugi

Best regards,
Gary Williams

1458
Applying NAVCAD basic thought processes here. So you have enough IAS to generate +6 G and the wing departs. There is an immediate total hydraulic failure (UHT's go to trail) and the fuselage RAPIDLY goes from the AOA associated with a +6G wing to a sudden decrease in AOA as the nose falls to a negative AOA and now the fuselage with a very high negative AOA, maybe -90 degrees stops in mid air. In a very short moment the IAS goes from say 500 KIAS to near zero relative to the initial flight path, sounds like minus 50-60G country to me. So the pilot's head is forced upward by the release of compression in his body under +6G and now the high negative G from the fuselage. His head hits the canopy like a pile driver: dead in an instant. But this is just a NAVCAD view of how things work in jets, ha. I will leave it to the digital math boys to write the program and see what the computers say about the G's.

Will Gray

1459
For Gary Williams:
Gary, thanks for putting the 11 wing failure list together.

For Howie Brown:
Howie:
1. Your comments are spot-on. From the input of the many F8 Drivers we see that the wing separations are random failures while talented pilots were performing totally acceptable maneuvers which were inside the envelope. We all have repeatedly flown the same maneuvers.

2. To the best of my knowledge and remembrance I know of no wing removal and trunnion xray or dye penetration inspection where the wing tip had smashed onto the carrier deck and wires on the TMTC (too many to count) main landing gear failures. The wing trunnions were in no way designed for heavy vertical impact force and also asymmetrical shock impact and lateral twisting. Jean-Pierre Robillard of the French F8s tell us a F8 skidded off a taxiway, dug/hit a wing tip and caused the wing to "break loose;" Jean-Pierre has been asked to elaborate.

3. The Lee Prost (VF-162) and the VC-10 wing loss were addressed by Bob Walters who witnessed the A/C making a strafing run, on a CVA-34 towed spar, from the flight deck and Dave Woltz observed frame by frame film of the VC-10 F8 making a missile run on the filming target ship.

a. Bob Walters stated about Lee Prost's accident: "the wing instantaneously disintegrated in a huge cloud of white fuel vapor and tiny metal pieces best described as chaff."

b. Dave Woltz stated: The wing seemed to fail from the leading edge and peel back with fuel spewing out as it departed."

It would appear that the wing separation/failure problem has two sources; one leading edge droop failure and the other from wing trunnion failure caused from previous undetected/recorded damage.

Will Gray demonstrated to us that his RF8G could have its "G" meter "pegged" in a rolling high "G" 90 degree turn away from AAA with enough force to break loose wing formers in the outer wing panel and then fly back to the boat.

I would offer the opinion that the F8 wing attachment system is well designed and works well when not previously damaged: it has carried this plane for hundreds of thousands of hours and uncounted carrier landing, dogfights and abuse from all of us.

Howie, I agree with your observations about AIRLANT, AIRPAC AND NAVAIR; that's why the Navy Safety Center was established. We lost 33 F8s and killed 16 pilots because of the fuel pump drive spline failure which went on for years. Five out of eleven F8C/P-16 turbine wheels in the North Island Overhaul Facility were found to be cracked and it took a bloody knock down fight to get the deployed F8C turbine wheels inspected. How many F8Cs were lost prior to the cracked turbine wheel was found? I'll give you more if you are interested.

I did not know about 11 wing failures; only Beaver Heiss' wing loss.

Dick Mudgett

1460
This info was told to me by Al Frucci when we were based in NAS Glynco, Ga in "65-"66. He said that during high G maneuvering in ACM his outer wing panel broke off at the fold. This caused an asymmetrical loading under high G which resulted in the entire wing coming off. I think he was flying out of Atsugi, Japan. (Third person tale from 50 years ago).

Slick
John Sledge

1461
I had orders out of VT-25, April 1968, to VF-13 or VF-32, can't remember which, via VF-124.

Traded orders with a pilot named Tim Skinner while in the RAG.

He went east coast late 1968 and I went to VF-191 to help CO Clyde Tuomela and XO Ray Donnelly out. As I was working on getting them squared away (mission impossible in Clyde's case) I heard that Skinner taxied over the side of whatever carrier he was on after a trap and was not recovered.

Can anybody relate the incident?

Then LTJG. Charles Lowry
AKA WeaZel

1462
re Tim Skinner Accident

Believe we covered this several years back on the forum. To recap: It was on Shangri-La and I was waving Tim's landing early in his nugget cruise. He made a decent landing (OK 2 as I recall). As he rolled out I turned to catch the next plane in the groove when we on the platform heard a loud 'bang' from forward on the flight deck. Turned back around to see Tim's plane charging up the angle - afterburner lit - skidding somewhat like he was trying to turn toward the axial deck...and the pack parked on the bow.

He went over the port side at about the crotch and shortly came floating back along the port quarter, airplane right side up, canopy open, and Tim seeming stunned but conscious and sort of groping for the Koch fittings. Just about abeam the stern, the plane sank fairly rapidly with him still in the cockpit. Ugly, but could have been a lot uglier if he'd gone into the pack forward.

Supposition was that in hurrying to clear the arresting gear, as he rotated his body clockwise to reach back for the wingfold handle, he inadvertently shoved the throttle into the detent and when the engine spooled up the burner lit. Maybe fellow Boomers who were on the AAB can add to this.

Joe Chronic

1463
Tim reported to VF-62 (not VF-32) deployed on Shangra-La, operating in the Med. It was poopie suit weather; Tim was a pretty large guy and in the p-suit he pretty much filled the cockpit. He trapped and started to taxi forward and make the right turn to cross the foul deck line....we will never know for sure why it happened but from where I was standing in pri-fly it appeared that Tim added a lot of power to quickly get moving across the line. When he pushed in right rudder to start the turn he pushed so far/hard that his left leg (remember he was a big guy) was pushed back to the point where his bent knee pushed the throttle into after burner. He started skidding forward as he attempted to turn. The left main mount skidded off the angle and the aircraft, still in burner, continued off the end of the angle into the water. As I remember it guys on the LSO platform indicated that Tim had opened the canopy and appeared to be moving around when a large wave, possibly from the carrier swept over the top of the aircraft and it sank out of sight. Tim either injured in the impact or hung up in the cockpit never cleared the aircraft. There are several guys from VF-62 reading this...so if what I remember doesn't ring true then please weigh in. Skipper Hubbard signed off on the Mishap Report and may have additional thoughts.

Chuck Tinker

1464
Regarding wings coming apart, that happened as late as 1985 or so. VFP-206 had a CQ det to Cecil for our FCLPs and traps on the Sara, I think. Our in-brief from the Cecil Air Ops O, whose name I can't recall now, basically said that he expected us to show the A-7s some color--carrier breaks, 500 knots, low transitions, etc. Great throwback at the time. At any rate, I had gone out for some reason (Pinecastle?) and was coming back in the break, oil cooler door bolted shut (as a result of the P-420 mod to the RF-8G--they never asked the pilots!). We were bouncing at Cecil vice Whitehouse. The LSOs were headed out to the platform in a pick-up truck. I hit the break with a lot of smash (as our later CO Cary Carson used to say), and when I broke, the entire right outer leading edge droop came off followed by a high speed departure and over-g. The droop hit the ground intact right next to the LSO pick-up truck, narrowly missing them. I flew to a safe altitude, and tried raising the wing. That was ok as long as I stayed over 170 KIAS. Landed on the long runway without a problem. The first cut was that I had over-g'ed the airplane in the break. I was adamant that it happened right as I began the left roll input and before I put any g on. Fortunately, the droop took a big chunk out of the starboard spoiler proving (I felt, anyway, since the spoiler was up) that I had just started the roll when it came off. Corrosion, I believe was the cause. I still think the LSOs thought I was aiming at them.

Moon Rivers

1465
In early 1961 as members of VF-32 Jim Lee and I were launched from a Condition One Alert. We had no idea where we were going. We just knew we had to get there fast! The Saratoga at the time was south of Cuba.

We were on the bow cats. Jim was launched first in burner. As soon as I was launched I switched frequencies and heard Jim on the radio ahead of me. We were heading west still in burner. About a minute later Jim transmitted that he had heard a loud bang and that his droops appeared to be gone!

I spotted him visually and joined on his left wing. The leading edge droops on Jim's airplane were gone, and fuel was streaming along the side of the fuselage from the main fuel tank. The inboard droops had apparently come off at the inboard connections first, slammed into the fuselage and punctured the main fuel cell before tearing away from the wing.

We diverted to Guantanamo Bay. Jim did a good job flying the airplane and landed successfully toward the east and the Bay. He dropped the hook and took the abort gear. I was instructed to return to the ship without landing at GTMO, so I didn't get to view the damaged wing up close.

I don't know at what speed the droops came off. Remember, the max speed for droops was 550 extended; 500 to transition.

Hall Martin

1466
Regarding the shed wings: Since so many have said this might have been precipitated by a leading edge droops failure starting the whole sequence: What if those were originally caused by someone over-speeding the leading edge droops on a previous hop many hours before, which started a weakening of the system. I can't remember off the top of my head what that speed limit was, where you had to retract the droops -- seem to recall somewhere in the 500-550 kts ias territory. I will admit that I exceeded that speed at least once with my droops down coming back feet wet from a particularly nasty mig cap with Duke Boennighausen. Speed of heat, and totally forgot to raise the droops doing 625+. I obviously reported it, and I'm sure it was inspected, but I wonder how many times that might have happened, no one knew about it, it wasn't inspected, and that weakened the droops, which eventually resulted in a wing failure somewhere down the line. Kinda like a hard landing that did not manifest itself until many hours later on "someone else's watch/flight."

Frank Meyers

1467
You guys could have me scared to death.

All of the stuff we put our F-8's through - high G hassles, wing-up scissors, supersonic gunnery, low altitude high speed rolling and pulling Wow - I had never heard of wings coming off and you guys talk like t was commonplace on the east coast. We were all by ourselves out in Kaneohe and didn't know any better. We did have belly rocket packs blowing out and yaw divergence departures because we had no tail fins - sometimes flying backwards with flames coming out the intake - but those were rides you couldn't pay enough to get.

After reading all of your accounts I am really lucky to be alive!!!

Rick Carlton

1468
Tim Skinner. Tim reported to VF-62, as I recall, just before we departed Mayport for the Med cruise. I think Joe Chronic and Chuck Tinker have described the accident as we surmised. I had just walked into Cag's office which must have been almost under where he lit the burner. I heard that after watching the landing on the plat. I agree with Chuck that he must have put on a fist full of power to come out of the gear and accidentally moved the throttle outboard into burner without knowing. When he pulled back to what he thought was idle, he was still in burner detent and when the engine spooled up to the rpm for burner, it lit. He shot into the water.

I will add that Tim reported from VF-124 without carrier qualification in the F-8. We agreed to fly him until qualified with a bingo field handy. He did a fine job with his first few landings and I think this was about his eighth landing with us in the Med. Tim was a very fine young man and appeared to be in the short time we had him a good aviator.

Sam Hubbard

1469
Joe, I was on the platform with you and remember the incident just as you do. The only thing I could add is that Tim's canopy was open and I remember thinking that after the water slapped the canopy down that the only way out was via the canopy interrupter -- a la Jim Nunn of VF-162.

David Matheny

1470
Looking at Thanh Hoa Bridge losses, it seems that Paul Ringwood's RF-8G off Midway was the last a/c downed among the 15 or so specifically targeted against "The Dragon's Jaw." On 16 Jun 72 he ejected about 10 miles offshore and was rescued by an SH-3. (It was his second ejection; first apparently was at Okinawa 1969 while the AF tried to clear a runway.)

Barrett Tillman

1471
We did not lose an F-8 at Rosey Roads back in '68 or '71 when VMF-351 was on their 2 weeks ACDUTRA.

We did lose an F-8 when the right wing folded during takeoff at NAS Atlanta in April '71.

Frank Hadden

1472
In late 1963 while going through the F-8 RAG at VF-174, Cecil Field, I was fortunate to get a very clean F-8E for my 1000 mph flight. During my Mach run, heading toward the Florida coast, I was leaving my chase behind. My Mach meter hung-up around Mach 1.6, as my instructor had briefed, so I stayed in burner, hoping it was just the gauge. Finally my instructor called me to come out of burner as I was too far in front of him, but he was sure I had exceeded 1000 mph. After returning to base I called the GCI operator and asked him how fast I was going. We plotted it out and I was actually going Mach 1.86. Pretty fast!

Around June 1964 I was flying wing on our Executive Office from Fleet Composite Squadron EIGHT in DF-8Fs (Drone controlling F8U-1s), in the Atlantic Fleet Missile Range. We were to rendezvous with an EB-47 north east of Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico in the Warning Area. We were flying on each side of the EB-47 that was acting like a TU-95 Bear, Russian bomber; and were to simulate Air-to-surface missiles launching against a U.S. missile cruiser in the AFMR. While accelerating through 600 knots, I saw a huge white cloud enveloping my lead's airplane. He was streaming a whole lot of fuel. I immediately called him stating it looked like he lost his leading edge droop. We came out of burner and headed for home. After landing it appeared the droop also cut into his fuel tank.

As a lowly JG, I was not privy to the accident investigation results and our C.O. never told the other pilots; however, it was pretty obvious he forgot to pick-up his droops before he reached 500 knots.

Alan (Falcon) Peterson

1473
I also remember another event at NAS Atlanta in the late 60's/early 70's where a Marine F-8 pilot got into a spin and tried to eject. The canopy did not come off and the seat didn't fire. He miraculously regained control of the airplane and came back into Atlanta and took the short field gear. They cautioned him not to open the canopy as that might allow the seat to fire.

At that time, our airplanes did not have zero/zero capability so it was rather tricky for the maintenance troops to crack the canopy open just enough to get an arm in to place the pins in the seat. I watched them from the ramp with a lot of apprehension. I hope the maintenance trooper got an award.

During those days (late 60's) all the airplanes were owned by the naval air stations and the squadrons just flew them. The navy and marine squadrons shared the same airplanes and drilled on alternate weekends. During the week, we all flew them. When the RESFORON concept came, the squadrons were the primary custodians of the airplanes and the NAS just provided services like fueling and weather services. It was a big change in the system and it also lead to much greater availability utilization and combat readiness. The priority for ordering parts was also made equal to a Fleet squadron (ashore) so that we didn't have squadrons getting activated when every airplane didn't have a tailhook.

Tom Brown

1474
Regarding Bill Hauseman's comment on VMF-351's late 60's cruise to Roosy Roads that got them banned from the "O" Club -- I was there and recall that one of them tied a smoke grenade to the table leg with the pin attached to a chair. When the base X-O pulled out the chair to seat his wife at a dress up "state side show" well, I'm sure you can imagine the chaos. Anyone with a red ID card was suspect. I think they might also have spent some time in BOQ hack when not flying. My roommate was a blackshoe security officer who also knew how to party.

Semper Fi
Ron Cole

1475
I was the Asst. Maint. Off. in VC 8, Roosy Roads, and was sent over to Gitmo as part of the accident investigation team.

The bird went off the end of the runway after an "unintentional" wing down landing. Details are hazy after 50 years, but I think the driver was a new Exec O, or maybe it was Exec O-to-be. Low time in the F8. Said he went through normal set-up for landing, including wing-up, and had to keep adding power on final to keep from settling. When I checked to cockpit the handle was in the wing-down position. The bird was hauled up off the rocks and set up in the hanger.

I went over the a/c maint. manual to find out the procedure for setting up and checking the wing system. Then later, with access panels opened to be able to see the works, I had the senior maint. crew chief come over to the bird, to show me how the system was checked. He said that they always checked to see that the 2 wing cables (up wing, down wing) were routed correctly, no worn or frayed spots on the cables, etc. When I asked him about cable tensions, he said that they checked visually to see if the cables had any slack, and showed me how he felt the cables to make sure they felt right. The maint. manual said that those cables had to be set to proper tension using a strain gauge. Had him go get a strain gauge so that we could so some checking.

The strain gauges showed that the tensions were way off the correct numbers. Result was that the handle acted and felt like it was "spring loaded" to the down position after the handle was raised. It didn't "snap down", just sort of eased to the wing down position.

Can't remember what the final finished accident report said, but I know that it wasn't the usual "100 % pilot error". Lots of maint. error in it.

First think I had done when I got back to Roosy was to have all our DF8F's checked right away. Seems like I remember that some of ours needed strain gauge tension adjustments, to correct for "eyeball and feel" settings.

Bill Buc

1476
The GTMO overrun described in today's message sounds like the mishap of Dean Beyer of VU-10 in '64 when he lost throttle control and shut down on final. He was a little fast because he did not know how long the engine would run until he lost all power. The result was he wound up on the rocks at the very end of the overrun with a broken back. At the time we had chain arresting gear but the cross deck pendant was not hooked up until a emergency was declared. don't know why. No time this time because he didn't have enough power to orbit. The aircraft sat for many days while they built a road out so that a crane could hoist it out. By that time most of the magnesium parts had returned to the sea the aircraft never flew again.

Dick Bishop

1477
I was in AOCS and a day or so before getting the commission. We were out doing whatever you do in AOCS when I noticed a section of F8's entering the break at Sherman. Then a T2 jumps the F8's and there was a little free for all in the overhead pattern. Loved it. Later Found out it was Cal Swanson and (I think) Jim Nunn. The attacker was Rick Adams, a squadron mate in VF162.

My commission was handed to me by Cal. I told him I really liked the F8 and he said he'd see me at Miramar.

Steve Stevens

1479
Steve Stevens is correct in his description of our fur ball dogfight over Pensacola Mainside with "Bulb" Adams, recently of VF-162 and then the voice of the Blue Angels. It was a trip to remember. As a bachelor I found the Pensacola natives very friendly that evening. Cal agreed reluctantly to allow me to fly into Saufley Field the next day to "motivate the students". It was a single ship performance below two hundred feet, land in 4500 feet and motivational speech for the students. Cal must have taken some heat because his first words when we met at the Pensacola O'Club later that day was: "Wa.. Wa.. What did you do?" To which I replied "The CO of VT-1 and the students loved it. The students were highly motivated." Cal always invested his time and effort in the future of Naval Aviation.

Jim Nunn

1480
I've met the owner of that F-8 registered to a museum in FL. It is not in the US; it is one of last flying French birds, and is hangared in Europe. Efforts to get it imported to the US have been stymied by the good ol' U. S. of A. gummint -- weapon of war or some such b.s. Same gummint that allowed the same guy to import and fly MiG's. Museum folks are a tight-lipped bunch (just try to find out where those two T-Bird aviation Crusaders are) which probably hasn't helped matters any. If someone with real clout wants to stick an oar in the water, will hook you up with him.

Dave Johnson

1481
My memory recalls on one of our Med Cruises, the Navy was paying who ever would take them in 2.00 dollar bills as a way of letting the natives know how much money a Med Port Call brought into a town's business. Can't remember the port, seems either Cannes or Naples, and the locals were a little upset because of all the bills (smaller denominations) they were having to change back to the local money. Any VF-62 members that can recall this.. Larie

Larie Clark

1482
Just heard back from the gent with the French F-8. He has State Dept. permission to (re)import F8 parts. Many of our guys are involved with various Crusader display projects; I'll provide contact info to those who may need some of those parts.

The French chopped up most of the remaining ones. Not all were (FN) models, they had obtained several US versions for spare parts. Chris Monier's cockpit is from one of those, so appropriate US parts may be available. Didn't ask about engines...

He's going to try again to get permission to bring in the whole a/c. I suppose loosening the grip on parts might indicate a loosening of the grip on parts in close formation.

Dave Johnson

1483
I was present at an early '90s LACB when he was the emcee. I remember his well done put down of the Navy's only Vietnam pilot ace, who was an invited guest. Cal had all the MIG killers stand, then sit as he numbered off the kills, beginning with one, two, etc. Duke was finally the only one left. Cal says: "Duke, you had 5 kills in an F4; an F4 has 2 engines, so that's 2.5 kills; you had 2 people in the airplane, so that's 1.25 kills - sit down Duke, lots of pilots have more kills than you." The room erupted and Duke was speechless for once.

Willy Carroll

1484
happened to be the AIM9-L project officer at Point Mugu PMR at that time. Targets was preparing a Nolo Phantom for two years ... Pete Brown was tasked with firing the AIM9-L at the Phantom from another Phantom ... .135 head-on ... cleared to fire ... the missile hit the star on the side of the fuselage! No more nolo. I was flying wing on Pete in an F-8. Quite a sight. And it was a non warhead missile ... supposed to be a close miss. The engineers cried.

Larry Miller

1485
Egyptian Badger
I was with VF-13 on a Med cruise and got the Badger call on the port cat. Played the usual games on the way in but I remember being surprised when he opened the bombay doors in close. As I was reporting this to CIC I dropped back and got a little up and got the winders growling. My request for instructions was.met with "Wait one! " the "1" seemed more like 1001. They came back with " Do a visual of the bombay interior".We were pretty low and as expected he got lower when he saw me move up. I stayed pretty much at the intersection of wing and fuselage trying to keep some blue sky above. All cameras! some lenses had way bigger diameters than I had heard of. Got some handheld pics around somewhere. That was the only flyover of the cruise. My guy tried to scrape me off when he saw me go under for close ups of belly with a 35mm. That was why I kept as much blue sky over head s possible during my "quick peak inside" I was the one that got the centerfold display by the tail bubble gunner but my response was probably not NATO politically correct. I was not feeling like becoming old buds with the guy who had just pointed his 2 50's at me so the best I could manage was to give him the finger.The guns, scrape off move and then opening the doors made these guys low on my popularity list and if I had had one of those ,not to rare, radio failures that tailgunner would have had a REAL *CLOSE UP photo opportunity of aim 9d noses.

John Mc$herry

1486
The Navy fighter community was ill prepared for Vietnam. Top Gun came along at worked at solving that problem. One v. One is a losing battle, the one v. one engagements are rare, the many v. many engagements are the norm and what Top Gun prepared the Navy fighter jocks to expect. Just ask the Air Force. The F-4 was designed as an interceptor, as stand off and kill weapon, as was the F-14, with no gun on the F-4, a Robert S. McNamara big mistake. F-4 pilots compared to airline pilots is pure B.S. Most Vietnam kills were straight and level...ask Randy Cunningham.

Bob Hulse

1487
Top Gun was indeed response to results of F4 training at that time.

With help of Miramar F8 Squadrons I helped set up gun camera shots of F-4 tail pipes at Miramar at Happy Hour for weeks on end>

The F4 guys were responding to the training curriculum at the time.

I cannot nail down that "TOP GUN" was result but timing is very conspicuous!

PJ Smith

1488
I flew with Jim Doggette during his Navy tour on several occasions and on one of those flights we were doing some IPC to familiarize Jim with the F8's capabilities in air to air engagements. During our second or third engagement Jim began to experience hydraulic problems with PC-2 pressure going down. I said we should break it off and head back to Cecil. We were about 50 miles at sea at the time.

Jim soon lost PC-2 completely and then PC-1 began to fail, again as I recall, all these years later. He was having a complete hydraulic failure and I told him the stick would go stiff on him and he would have to eject when that happened as the nose would probably pitch over. He deloyed the RAT to no avail.

His bird began to pitch over and he ejected just as advertised! I circled him as he descended into the Atlantic about 5-7 miles off the coast. I had already alerted SAR on guard and the helo was on the way. I stayed over him as he scrambled into his raft and the help arrived soon and picked him up in the sling..

Jim Brady

1489
Tommy Tucker story.

When I finished up basic training in July of 1960, I had the choice of going to Corpus and take my chances - or stay in Pensacola and be a rotorhead. I had decent flight grades and decided to take my chances. I show up late Friday afternoon and I meet TT - student control officer for advanced training. The conversation goes something like this:

TT: What are you looking for?
Me: Jets, jets, or AD's.
TT: Too bad, you are going P2V's.
Me: I quit
TT: Go ahead.

Well, that did not work. We talked some more, and he told me to come back Monday. That weekend, I ended up at a party, and TT was there. We talked some more, and he said he might have something Monday. I come in and he makes me an offer. Since I was relatively senior - I had spent a year on a destroyer, and was a jg at the time, he tells me the student control officer at Kingsville, a Marine major, was asking for an assistant. He tells me that I was willing to work for the major as his assistant for six weeks, I would be part of a jet training class at Kingsville. This was a no-brainer. When my jet class started there were three of us in it. Got my wings in December 1960. One of the three of us was a marine. About half-way through F11's. the VT-23 skipper calls the marine into his office. Tells him he is going to Camp Lejeune When he asked what they flew there - told they don't. Informed the marine that the Marine Corps decided they did not need him as an aviator and he was going to be a platoon commander. This after completing all but a handful of F11 flights.

Over the course of a few months, I ran into TT a few times and we more or less became friends. When it came time to look for orders, I call him up and ask him what sort of billets might be available. None - he says - which was disheartening. We talk for a while, and then he tells me there were some billets available for VFP-63. I asked, what do they do? take pictures. Sounded inviting, and it beat he alternative. I spent ten years in VFP-63 during two tours, four deployments, and 2,000 hours.

One more thing about the assistant to the major. My principal job was to work with the NAVCAD's. This was the time when one of them had gone out for CARQUAl's. He had finished up and headed back to Kingsville - never to be seen again. Searched and wide but never found any sign of him.

Scott Ruby

1490
Thanks guys for the pass along regarding the F4, the F8, ACM beginnings and the origin of Top Gun.. It seems like every so often someone has similar questions and they seem To be passed to me for Commentary.

My initial memories of ACM began in the Mid Fifties when FAGU at NAF EL Centro was teaching tactics and specialized in Air To Air gunnery. FAGU had some real combat Experienced Naval: Aviator instructors such as Alex Vraciu and I believe Diz Laird. Shortly thereafter In 1957, during my first fighter squadron tour flying F4 D Skyrays, I was exposed to several WW 2 Aces such as Gene Valencia, Tex O'Neil and Claude LeVinge. Although, we were an interceptor squadron by mission, we did a whole lot of tactics flying. That tour was probably the first time I fought Mel Holmes who was also flying Skyrays in VC 3. We nuggets had all of the flying we could handle. and learned a lot from the senior squadron pilots.

I think everyone would agree that the F4 was designed from conception as an interceptor with missiles only and sadly NO GUN!!! What a mistake as most of the F4 Vietnam era vets will confirm. During the first half of the Vietnam War the Navy's kill ratio was an unacceptable 2 to1. Along came a document named the "Ault report" written by Captain Frank Ault, Commanding Officer of USS Coral Sea. Among his recommendations from Yankee Station experience was for the Navy to form a postgraduate fighter weaponry course to resurrect naval aviation's past skills in dog fighting. That challenge was given via the COC to VF121 and Captain Hank Halleland. The NFWS,. later nicknamed Top Gun had its beginnings there and was staffed with nine people, primarily out of the tactics phase instructors. Jim Ruliffson, Mel Holmes, JC Smith, Jerry Sawatsky, Darrel Gary, Jimmy Laing, Steve Smith, John Nash and myself as lead as a fresh caught LCDR. Wayne Hildebrand joined as our AI. Each had two combat tours and great combat reputations and were somewhat opinionated regarding the war. Doc Townsend during his command tour, had previously started an advanced tactics phase in anticipation of the need for more ACM ultimately.

It was a short fuse startup that is still going strong some 46 years later at NAS Fallon Nevada. What has made it so eminently successful has been consistent talented leadership and aircrew staffing that has religiously adhered to the basic training principles and standards of aircrew performance. It is truly still run by J.O's on a daily basis. It has also had consistent support from the chain of command. Personally, I wish it had been left as a separate command run by a LCDR or very junior CDR. Without being too wordy, the F 4 was a superb dog fighter, given our redefined flight envelope, new tactics and flown by an ACM trained crew. It worked as intended and after Top Gun's effects were felt, the kill ratio for the latter part of the war was 24 to 1. Average for the entire war was 12 to 1. Incidentally, that is exactly what the kill ratio has been historically for Naval Aviation throughout its other battles.

The school would never have gotten off the ground without great aviators phasing into the Adversary flying role! Men such Lou Paige, Mike Gunther, Ross Anderson, Pete Pettigrew, Dick Schulte VF 121 CO later. Devil Houston, TR Schwartz, Dick Moody, Colin Griffin, VF 126, VX 4, and yes VF 124's F 8's. We even later used A6's and USAF. A better full account is in the book by Robert Wilcox titled "Scream of Eagles".

Regarding the F8, it was a superb day "Gunfighter" and served its time well. but, unfortunately it was being phased out when Top Gun was being started. It's combat record in the hands of Paul Speer, Moose Myers. Duke Hernandez, Devil Houston, Phil Wood, Boyd Repsher, and so many others was remarkable. In retrospect we probably should have built another version of the F8 after the fly off. Those of you who flew it, loved it. It was a fighter pilots fighter with its own distinct tactics. Nothing bad to say except, the F8 Drivers were always watching the RR movies when I returned from a night flight.

Naval Aviation never quite seems to reflect back and study its successful history and its few mistakes. Top Gun's F4 tactics were derived from WW1, WW 2, Korea and early Vietnam experience, yes both friendly and the enemy, and both the F8 and F4. Think about the term "numerical inferiority"? We're going there again, why a few very expensive F35's, without a gun!. The gun is still the combat pilots weapon of choice! We always seem to rely on promised technology to win for us and on and on. Drones are another subject. While they have some utility, security and maintainability are still in question in my mind. Combat experience has taught me the value of a human wing man and in the really tough times, the human Naval Aviator will always get the job done. I owe my life on two occasions while flying to my wing man, a drone could not have helped me As a former carrier skipper, USS Ranger, I am not sure that on a rainy black night my pilots or myself would want a drone in the holding pattern or anywhere on deck. Yes I have seen the videos and again reflected on my experience." It's never the airplane, it will always be the pilot that counts' Look at TR Swartz as living proof to prove my point and demonstrate the dynamic value of Naval Aviators..

Dan Pedersen

1491
I was an F-4 driver start-to-finish. After two F-4 combat tours, I was sent to the RAG in the summer of '68. In Oct '68, the Ault Report came out, which gave impetus to the formation of a graduate school. I was selected along with 8-9 others to be the initial cadre of the NFWS, and taught there from the first class in Mar '69 until mid-'71, subsequently assigned to VF-111 (which had just transitioned from the venerable F-8) for what became my third combat tour in early '72. And, yes, I knew Tooter first-hand. VF-111 and VF-51 were on Coral Sea together for that '71 - '72 cruise. Then TPS, where I flew an F-8C with the big engine (good aircraft...) and found out about night noises, even in the daytime. Got jerked out of the test community unexpectedly in March '75 with orders to TopGun as CO - had this millstone around my neck named Rattler as my Ops Officer. I believe I can add some first-hand insight into the why's and wherefore's surrounding TopGun and the business about interceptor drivers transitioning to the F-4.

V/R Jim Ruliffson

1492
The Ault Report, Admiral Tom Moore and USAF Project "Red Baron" report had a lot to do with the formation of Top Gun. As pointed out earlier, the F-4 to MIG exchange ratio was very low around 3.7 to 1 while the F-8 to MIG exchange ratio was more than twice that of the F-4. The ACMR/ACMI Tactics Range a Yuma was another fallout of the Ault Report.

I used the Red Baron I report that came out in 1966 and the Red Baron II report that came out in 1973 to select the initial conditions and firing parameters for the AIM-9L OPEVAL/IOT&E missile firing annex.

There was another spinoff from the Ault Report and Red Baron I. It addressed the surprising number of Sidewinder and Sparrow missiles that failed to guide or in the case of the Sparrow, just bombed off the F-4 Phantom. None of this escaped the sidewinder program office at NWC China Lake or the PMA-259 shop at NAVAIRSYSCOM or DDR&E.

Most of us assumed if we had a good tone on the Sidewinder or tune light on the Sparrow that we had a good missile... Sadly that wasn't always the case. It turns out that the AIM-9D Sidewinder and AIM-7E Sparrow guidance and control units were built with early 60s tube type technology. There was also a clear direct relationship between the number of hours (and Cat/Traps) on these missile and failure to guide.

The engineers at China Lake examined a sample of AIM-9D Sidewinders and AIM-7E Sparrows in early 1970 and found the filaments in the superheterodyne vacuum tube signal amplifiers were broken. All this resulted in the development of solid state missile guidance and control units (AIM-9L and AIM-7F) that didn't see service until after Vietnam.

From my perspective, joining 124 in 1969, the F-8 community had a lot to do with NFWS Top Gun's formation.

In looking back, sound Loose Deuce maneuvering, attitude, motivation to be the best, look good around the field and ship were ever present. That motivation came from a distinguished cadre instructors. Rat Wood and Pirate used to tell us time and time again... you're flying the F-8 Crusader, there isn't a bar in Naval Aviation where patrons won't pay due respects when you tell them "I fly or flew the F-8 Crusader."

Checking into the VF-124 Ready Room at NAS Miramar for the first time, I was struck by the history of the Crusader. The walls of the stairwell to the VF-124 Ready Room were clustered with red silhouettes of MIG-17s and MIG-21s with the names of Crusader pilots and Mig Masters who shot them down. I was delighted and awed by the fact that many of these Crusader pilots and MIG Masters were my instructors or PXO/COs going through a retread in the Crusader while I was there.

There was also a "must read" list of books lining the window sill of the VF-124 Ready Room overlooking the flight line and runways. These books were either about or written by the great fighter Aces... like Eddie Rickenbacker, Douglas Bader, Adolf Galland and many others. I still have a hardback copy of The First and The Last by Adolf Galland

I recall several fascinating discussions in the VF-124 Ready Room and the WOXOF Bar about the formation of Top Gun between Skipper Easterling, Devil, Rattler, Tooter, Pirate, Cobra Parker, Rat Wood and many others... One of the common themes was... "They're teaching Top Gun tactics in a Phantom and they don't even have a gun..."

As FRPs in the Crusader, we would regularly jump ugly on Phantoms out in the warning areas and many were flown by VF-121 F-4 Phantom Instructors... During my 2 VS 2 Dissimilar Tactics phase, Hoser challenged Jim Ruliffson at VF-121 to a 2 VS 2 engagement at High Noon on Friday over the runway on San Clemente Island at 20,000 feet with the wingman of his choice... "We'll debrief with gun camera films in the WOXOF at Happy Hour..."

Hoser's brief with me was short and simple... Section go and fan break. When we engage the phantoms, work the vertical and keep the fight above 10,000 feet where the F-8 has a turn rate and turn radius advantage. When you need to add energy, burner, droops up, wing down, top rudder and 2 tenths of a G. When you've got the phantom beat, call the Fox II then close to guns and Hose Hose Hose...

The two engagements were short and sweet... Great Loose Deuce maneuvering and very few words spoken... we worked the vertical and by the second nose high turn we had the Phantoms on the run nose low in burner attempting their extension maneuver... It didn't work... Hoser and I saddled up on our respective phantoms, called the Fox II, then closed to guns and hosed away.

We had just returned from a gunnery det to MCAS Yuma so I had a lot of gun camera footage. When we landed, I'd arranged for a photo tech from the base photo lab to met us and grab the gun camera cassettes for development. An hour after the flight I spliced in footage of shots on the banner except where all you could see was the pipper jittering as the guns fired. The net effect in replay was to see the pipper closing on the phantom then the spliced segment with the pipper jittering for a second or two followed by a closeup of the pipper on the phantom...

When we arrive at the WOXOF Bar, a projector and screen were already set up... Hoser narrated the debrief and I ran the 16 mm projector... As the gun camera footage passed through the guns call with jittering pipper, the look on Ruff's face was priceless... His jaw dropped and eyes got big as saucers... Then he turned to Hoser and said... "You were firing live ammo?" I had to bite my tongue and turn away as Hoser replied..."Ya... but we were aiming aft of your aircraft."

It took a couple replays of the 16 mm footage and an explanation of how I'd spliced the firing sequences into the gun camera footage of our engagements before Ruff finally calmed down and smiled.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
Pete Batcheller

1493
I waited a couple of days, knowing many readers of this blog are much more knowledgeable about the inception and early days of Topgun than I. Serving as an IP in VF-124 from 1966 to 1968, I was the Tactics Phase Leader. The examination of tactics and weapons commensurate with the Ault Report was being done. The air to air war in Vietnam was not going very well and the F8 Tactical Manual contained a lot of advice that was just plain incorrect. LTV was given a contract to coordinate a rewrite of the TacMan and Al Lansdowne (Radar Section), Jerry Unruh (Weapons Section), and I (Tactics Section) were given the task of writing a major upgrade of the manual. We visited with aerodynamicists and engineers at LTV and tapped into the earlier works of USAF Maj. John Boyd who had written extensively on the concept of energy maneuverability.

We also worked closely with the F4 community which was beginning to enjoy an infusion of former F8 pilots - Dan McIntyre who was my counterpart Tactics Phase Leader in VF-121 and I collaborated and traveled to other AirWing 12 squadrons to brief their pilots on evolving ACM tactics.

VF-124 ran an advanced instruction program for squadron Weapons Officers every couple of years that we called the Crusader College Masters Degree Program - two weeks of intensive classroom and flight instruction. VF-121 had a similar program and following the Ault Report, with the winding down of the F8 and buildup of the F4 program, the F4 RAG tactics group was selected as the core of the new NFWS.

In retrospect, the F8 community upped its level of understanding and implementation of air to air tactics more rapidly than the F4 community in the rough period of 1965-1970. There were F4 types who were every bit as good as those of us flying the F8, but they had to overcome the inertia of what was heretofore considered to be a radar interceptor - not a dogfighter. It took a little longer and a strong push from those within the F4 community, but by 1971-1972 the outcome of a dissimilar fight between F8 and F4 would be determined by being the first to spot the other aircraft or having a very distinct altitude or speed advantage at the start.

Tom Corboy

1494
As VF-124 Ops/Training/NATOPS from 1968-70 and VF-121 Ops 1971-2, I participated directly in the formalization of both VF-124 TOPGUN and VF-121 Fighter Weapons School:

The concept of a formal "school" was initiated back when by some very prestigious names in Naval fighter pilot history. In 1967 and into early '68, VF-124 skipper Bob Chew had come close to getting it in the air. Unfortunately, he was short on both pilots and aircraft and was sorely tasked just to crank out RP's for those being lost in Vietnam. When CVW-16 (VF-162 and VF-111) returned in Jan '68, his problem for pilots was answered. The newly proclaimed "policy" of 2 combat deployments per pilot had implemented and several experienced pilots became available. Harry Post relieved Bob Chew, Bruce Boland took over the Maintenance Dept, and the fun began. To establish and formalize the extremely important ground school segment, Post tasked John Helman and Tom Corboy to write a new Tactics Manual. As NATOPS, I was charged with a rewrite of those old manuals. They were stripped of what little tactics had been in them; my big job was the C became the K, the D became the H, and the E became the mighty J. Don Paolucci and Bill Rennie coordinated the whole thing, Bruce furnished the aircraft and "TOP GUN" was airborne. I recall they wanted to use the name "GUNFIGHTER", but official sources said it was already taken by some Marine guys in 'Nam. What really put TOP GUN on solid ground was the Israeli presents at Indian Springs of two MiG-17's and one -21. Remember taking one RP on his VF-124 "graduation" flight: Took off from Miramar, landed at Nellis, briefed with Tooter Teague, who then leaped in his ground transportation to Indian Springs. Took off from Nellis and engaged Tooter near Site 51, then Tom Cassidy showed up in the -21 for a final go. Can't recall that RP's name, but he was one pumped up guy when we got back to Miramar. Geeding, Black Jack, Cobra, Devil, Sheep Dog, Thunder, Brillo, et.al. ... If God wanted some fighter pilots to defend His Heaven, He couldn't have started with a more talented, devoted, and patriotic group of guys.

One year off for NPGS, and I came back to (unfortunately) VF-121. Didn't share Tooter's view of the change to the F-4, and I did appreciate that extra pair of eyes in the cockpit! Belated thanks to all those RIO's who hung in there with me! Dirt Pringle relieved Franklin, Yank Dorsey moved in as XO, Ray Fox took over Maintenance, I had Ops and the revitalized Phantom RAG took off. They had 120 students in the pool! Some of them, like Bill Driscoll, were actually living (vacationing) in remote locations considerably to the south. Almost in defiance of a foot-dragging COMFAIRMIRAMAR, which was more concerned with providing barracks for drug rehab and preparing for the F-14 than enabling the existing squadrons, Dirty got it going! Roger Box took the job that became FWS; first as a Det then as a separate command. The rest is a glorious history that was ensured by the likes of Dan, Frosty, Goose, J.C., et.al.

I didn't get to watch FWS really boom out of NKX; good friend Harry Blackburn, VF-92 XO/PCO, got bagged 10 May '72. Roger was the next "stashed" PCO, but he delayed to stay with FWS. As Ops O, I had of course finagled a day qual in the Phantom. Dirty believed my statement that I was ready to go, COMFAIR didn't give a damn (Lamoreux was glad to see me leave), and I caught TWA out of LA. Got my night qual on Yankee. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!

Brown Bear
Dick Schaffert

1495
Great comments about Top Gun and it brings back many memories as what you did really assisted us Marines as to what we did and I thought I would share as best as I remember what we initiated for the Marines on the west coast and WestPac. On the west coast at El Toro we had Marine Air Weapons Training Unit Pacific (MAWTUPAC) this was to become Marine Air Weapons Training Squadron (MAWTS) in later years. The original intent of MAWTUPAC was Nuclear training and conventional weapons training. During Vietnam we sent an Instructor to WestPac Iwakuni to refresh A4 pilots who had a secondary MOS in nuclear delivery. It really was a boondoggle for Marines to get out of Vietnam for about a week. The Instructor would also go to ChuLai to introduce new weapons delivery tactics for weapons such as Wallyeye and various cluster bomb units (CBU). My background before being assigned to MAWTUPAC started in 1960 with three years with VMF (AW) 451 in F8's and then three years in Beeville with VT-26 instructing Air to Air Gunnery and ACM. Following this I went to Vietnam and after six months on the ground with the Korean Marines (great fighters) I wasn't current in any aircraft and I got a few hours in A4's and got assigned my last six months in country flying the A4's. Following this I went to MAWTUPAC in 1967 as a very junior Major. I say this to give you my background and what we did as the Navy was starting Top Gun. MAWTUPAC OIC was Don Keast, our F4 instructor was Dave Vest (both great aviators and F8 background) and I was the A4 instructor. MAWTUPAC was opcon to FMFPAC and adcon to 3rd MAW. While Top Gun was getting under way Gen Owen CG 3rd MAW wanted standardization in our ACM in both the F4 and A4 community. MAWTUPAC was tasked to write the ACM section of the Tactical Weapons Manual and provide the initial instruction in ACM to a designated pilot from each squadron and they would become the Air Combat Tactics Instructor (ACTI) for their Squadron. The F8's were phasing out and we did not have any squadron left in 3rd MAW. So Dave Vest was the lead and I was assisting him and writing the ACM portion for the TAC Manual and we both developed the ACTI syllabus for instructing future squadron ACTI. Dave instructed the F4 community and I the A4 community. This was in 1968 and for Dave Vest's work he was selected as the Top Marine Aviator of the year and presented the Cunningham award and it was well deserved. Later in 1970 I believe the Marines were scheduled to get the F-14 and Don Keast was the head of the transition team and Dave Vest was his assistant but after about 6 months this was canceled, which was a smart move as the Marine mission did not require the F-14. In 1960 in F8's ACM was then called Air to Air tactics as a junior officer I was the guy always in the fighter wing position this was a 30 degree cone 700 ft. behind the lead. Normally we fought as a division with the section split similar to loose deuce. I always felt when I would be shot down the lead would know he was in trouble as it was difficult to keep checking six and hold that fighter wing position. I thought I found a new world when I understood the egg theory in ACM and was able to be an integral part of the fight in the loose deuce position. The years with MAWTUPAC and the truly professional people you associated with were an important part of my life. For those that did not know the A4 was a great adversary for Top Gun as it had the wing loading similar to a Mig 21, but no burner. It was always fun to fight an early version F4 who wanted to stay in the mix, instead of hit and run, as you always had his lunch. It happened a few times while holding over Miramar for a tacan approach and being jumped by a section of F4s canceled the tacan and bumped heads and going on guard channel saying guns, guns, guns.

Al "Animal" Ransom

1496
I'm glad to see Tom Corboy mention the "Crusader College Post grad Course", which I've always considered the genesis of "Top Gun". I was fortunate enough to be chosen to attend the first class while serving in VF-162 during our turn-around at Miramar. My classmates were Skip Giles, John Laughter, Steve Russ, Bill Switzer, John Quisenberry. John Hellman was the OinC. Other instructors for that first class included Bruce Johnson, Dick Mudgett, Dave Morris, Larry Miller, Ron Ball, Boyde Repsher, Bob Geeding, and Don Agatep.

Some years later, I had a chance to attend the fully mature Fighter Weapons School in the F-14. I would say both were great schools, but I remember enjoying Crusader College more, perhaps because it was the only course of its kind in those days. The curriculum included a lot more detailed technical instruction in the fields of aerodynamics, aircraft performance, missile design, and radar performance. We had several outstanding guest lecturers from Raytheon and whoever was making our ECM gear at the time. It really was a special school and I remember it as one of the highlights of my time in the Navy.

I remember that we each got to shoot an AIM 9-D at a maneuvering Firebee Drone. At that time, the fleet squadrons only used the AIM 9-B for practice, so shooting the D model was a big deal for us. We shot down and completely destroyed every Firebee Drone they launched and the drone guys were furious. It turns out that there weren't any dummy warheads with spotting charges available for the D model so, unknown to us, we were launching live Sidewinders. It was believed by some that John Hellman knew all about it ahead of time, but he plead complete ignorance and as far as I know, he's still sticking to that story.

Bob Walters, Pagan

1497
I was released from active duty in May 1968, after serving as Tactics Phase Leader in VF-124 for two years, and went to work at Pratt & Whitney as an engineer. I checked out in a Piper Cherokee 140 at a local FBO in Hartford, CT and paid for the occasional flight hour. By early 1969 I realized I had made an incorrect "once in a lifetime" decision and joined an F8 Reserve Squadron at NAS Willow Grove. I flew a combined FAM and area checkout with Harry Sarajian in March 1969.

In April a fellow Willow Grove pilot cancelled out of orders for two weeks Annual Active Duty at a session of Crusader College at VF-124 and I was offered the billet. Next thing I knew I was on what was essentially my FAM-2 after almost a year's absence from the F8, a dissimilar 2 F8 vs 1 A4 at 5000 ft (and perhaps below) over San Clemente Island. My instructor was Dick "Hot Dog" Nelson - first time I had met him. With a government paid rental car, the WOXOF in full swing, and some phenomenal flying, it was a wonderful two weeks in the F8. And eight months later I was back on Active Duty. I still have my Masters Degree Diploma - it is titled Carrier Air Wing Twelve Fighter Weapons School and is signed by Phil Craven who was CAG 12 at the time.

Tom Corboy

1498
I did four or five Badger and Bear intercepts in the Med, North Atlantic and Westpac. I never saw any semi-threatening gestures, but I did enjoy it when a Bear Waist Gunner shared a Playboy Centerfold over the North Atlantic one afternoon. We gave each other a big thumbs up to show that some things are commonly appreciated and that planted the seed for taking down the Berlin Wall.

Then it came time to recover. Chuck Larry was driving the VFP-62 Photo F8, LTJG Somebody was in the Brand X F4 and I had the VF-103 Fighter F8. The Forrestal's deck was moving a bunch so the Air Boss or LSO decided to take the F4 first. Unfortunately, when the F4 touched down it split open longitudinally and one or both engines dropped out on the deck. Fortunately, he caught a wire and everyone was treated to the view of a spectacular fire in the middle of the landing area. The good news was that nobody got hurt. I had a comm/nav radios failure so Chuck and I bingoed a couple of hundred miles to Lages for fresh salads, steaks and a good night's sleep. We were really tired of peanut butter soup and powdered milk. Nobody at Lages could fix the radio pack so Chuck took me home to Pawtucket on his wing the next morning.

Just another day at the office...and I would like to do it all again.

Cheers Mates!

Don Bently

1499
Thanks for the come back JO. My incident was Med.69, Shang. Got the call on the port cat to switch frequency Got together with a TU-16 100 nm.+ out. I was only one on him including no photo guys so I got in close and started a 35mm hand held survey. I then got the same special attention that you experienced, i.e 2 big barrels pointed at me which "canceled" any "warm and fuzzy fellow aviator relationship potential". My recollection is that the turret was on the tail.

The gunner held something up on the side of the the bubble so I got a little closer, he unfolded a centerfold. Although I had to smile under cover of the mask I relayed my disfavor of the gun pointing with the INTERNATIONAL finger signal.

When we got inside of 10 miles + - the bomb bay doors opened. I dropped back, armed the Winders while informing CIC. The response, "wait one" (seemed like 101). Got directed to do a visual of bombay interior which revealed 4/5 very large cameras!

On the way out I noticed an array of unusual protrusions under the port wingtip and got pretty close for best detail pics. When I pulled back their left seat pilot signaled to get away. Seconds after I was directed to break it off and return. I mentioned the pilots signal. I was met on deck and escorted to a debrief with the Admiral in attendance. There was serious concerns regarding thr PIC gesture in that they thought it was a "bye" wave evoked by my instruction to break off and return which would have indicated a breach of our encrypted UHF.

I explained the gesture was seconds BEFORE the return signal and the reason. There was noticeable relief, even a "good job". Skipper gave me the movie pick honor presumably motivated by relief that his "nugget" didn't start a war.

John McSherry

1500
Bingoed Da Nang with one PC out and one underperforming. Tower turned runway lights on when short final and off again as soon as I touched down. Shelling on and off in the distance. Met by VNAF U.S. Contractors, secured A/C in revetment, and spent the night in their hooch. Watched VNAF A-37s bombing surrounding hills next morning. They were releasing within sight of field. Much of base had been looted. For example, all the copper wire in the revetments had been stripped and sold on the black market. COD arrived early PM with maintenance crew and relief pilot. A/C returned next day.

Best to you as well.
Pete "Mick" Walsh

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