THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN
SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO
ATTEMPT
HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL
FASHION.
901
In early 73, I was flying with VF-211 on the "Hancock". During
one of the in port periods to Cubi Point Moon Vance and I launched (I
don't remember why now). I do remember that we were flying
below 10,000 ft and were somewhere southeast of Cubi. The flight
conditions were mostly VFR. However, the clouds had been pushing the
deck down quickly and it was looking darker and darker toward
Cubi. Moon didn't say anything so I didn't either. Finally
I called out to Moon on the radio about the deteriorating weather.but
there was no response. After a few failed attempts to reach him I
pulled up along his port side trying to get his attention. I
suspected that the worse case would be that he would just pass me the
lead and come back NORDO on my wing. To my surprise, as I
approached Moon I noticed that the panel covering the circuit breakers
just aft of the cockpit was glowing, sparking, and blackened.
Moon had not yet noticed that I was on his port side so I frantically
moved up trying to get his attention and at the same time pointed to
him and giving him the fire signal. As he looked out to see me I
noticed that his O2 mask was off. He very calmly
acknowledged my fire signal with thumbs up and passed me the lead.and
with the same hand he took a long drag from his cigarette.
Rich Smith 902
I was involved with Jerry Unruh with the production of the business card
sized picture of the F-8 gunsight on an F-4 that was displayed last
week . The Crusader which was flown by Jerry was in a right pursuit
turn. This can be determined by the 60 mil lead and the pipper being
above the reticle ladder due to gravity drop of the ammo.
This was a VF-124 tactics flight conducted jointly with VF-121, not
an incidental encounter. We culled through the frames of the gun camera
and this one was the selection. These were printed on small cards.
A joint RAG dinner dance was scheduled for the Miramar O'Club.
VF-124 announced that they would provide corsages for ALL the ladies and
we did. These corsages had orange ribbon which was the 124 color. The
corsage and the ribbon needed to be affixed to a small heavy paper so
that it could be provided with a pin to attach to the ladies' dresses.
VF-124 graciously handed out these corsages and pinned them onto each
lady as she arrived with the photo side against their dress.
Our intent was that when they returned home and removed the corsage,
they would see the gunsight picture and we would have scored yet
another "gotcha!" No one discovered the fact that the picture was there
during the event.
This is how it was. The rumor part, which may also be fact, is that
the driver of the F-4 was, himself, a fairly colorful F-8 pilot and
world class LSO that ended up in the F-4 program as their tactics phase
leader.
Al Lansdowne
903
I was escorting Bill Wilson on a post strike photo run when he took a
lot of damage from AA. We proceeded over water and started climbing. I
joined on Bill and did a little BDA and informed him of all the hits on
his photo bird. I advised Bill to slow flight the bird before descending
the the USS Midway. Bill said he would but first, he'd need a
cigarette. I watched him take off his mask and light up. I sat on his
wing while he finished his smoke. He then, put his mask back on and
dirtied the Crusader. We proceeded back to Midway and Bill landed. I
thought, "is this guy cool or what"?
Vic Riley 904
"The Man from LOX" was a great graphic movie about the danger of LOX.
In USS MIDWAY '72-'73 the LOX crew was freezing warts for the crew on
the flight deck with LOX, normally nitrogen is used by the docs for
that: not smart... There was a sea story of a sailor who saw a ball of
LOX sizzling on the flight deck: he stomped it with his greasy boot heel
which caused a minor explosion, breaking his foot. Don't mess with
LOX...
On one cruise (don't remember which) the LOX plant failed so the C-2
was bringing large LOX trailer loads of the stuff from Cubi Pt. Would
have made one hell of a ramp strike explosion. We were told to conserve
oxygen (don't use it) for a while... Hard to follow the rule of having
the mask on from takeoff to landing (who ever did that anyway?).
Did OnBoard OxyGenerating System (OBOGS) ever come to life, or do we still use LOX?
Will Gray
905
My F8U-1 REST Computer says only that it is a computer, cruise control,
U.S. Property. My newer one is a U-REST Universal REST computer Type
TWD-3 with two extra F-8K inserts-both confidential.
Jim Clare expounds: I understand REST came from "Range, Endurance,
Speed and Time", as from that neat navigation tool "The Rest Computer. I
thought it was a great device and the USAF didn't have one and was
forced to wade through through all those tedious charts in the back of
the flight manual (pre-NATOPS) and they had nothing with which to
compare. Some said at the time it was developed to compute Ensign sack
time, but I don't believe that as Ensign sack time was pre-programmed.
Marty Johnson 906
The APN-67 Type TWD-3 REST Computer (Range, Endurance, Speed & Time)
came with different plug in "wheels" for the Model F-8 one was flying.
Garnett W. Haubelt 907
I was so glad to learn what "REST" meant as it brings back fond memories.
At Cherry Point We were flying the RF8A right out of the box at
Dallas in 59'. It was soon apparent that the performance tables in the
back of NATOPS were not accurate. This was particularly true when one
got down to under 5 or 5 thousand lbs. of fuel. For example, if I
remember correctly, the optimum initial cursing altitude was around 44K
at .88 burning about 2500 lbs an hour. In the days of "VFR on top" we
could cruise climb as we burned down and ended up at 45 or 46K and when
one got real light you could be at .90-.91 at 1900-2000lbs per hour.
Tack an idle let down on the end of that and you could go one hellva
long way. This was explained by the fact that the RF carried about
1200lbs more than the fighters and was somewhat lighter and certainly a
lot cleaner. At Point Yankee we would occasionally plug into an A3 right
off the cat for 1000 lbs and go direct to Iwakuni. In Conus we could
fly direct from El Toro to Jax nonstop with 100 knots of wind on the
tail. In using the REST we would set it up with the inner and outer
dials to "Specific Range" (miles per 1000lbs of fuel) for inflight
planning and use it that way. What a beautiful bird! It took good
pictures too.
Jerry Mitchell 908
During the summer of 1966, there was a Marine Recon Team wreaking havoc
on a large NVA force in and around Ashau Valley. They were stalking the
NVA calling in artillery form afar. After several days of this, the NVA
sorta figured out what was happening and eventually our Marines were
detected and a harrowing chase began. Captain Bing West, USMCR was
doing his summer reserve assignment observing (damn, he does observe up
close and personal) and writing about small unit tactics. He was with
the Recon Team now being chased.
Here is how I was involved. I am airborne, 20,000 feet with a wingman,
Tom Elder, in the F8E Crusader loaded each with 2, 2,000 pound bombs.
We are about to begin a TPQ run (radar controlled drop) into the DMZ
area from high altitude. I get a call on "guard" (emergency channel,
UHF, as you know) telling me to not drop, that there is an emergency,
Marines in trouble, switch to xxx.x UHF and contact Covey airborne FAC.
I do so, immediately get Covey posit, quickly assume heading to an area
(as I recall) just west and south of the big bend in Rt 9 near the
karst formations. Covey tells me he has a Recon Team being hotly
pursued by 2 battalions of NVA (a bunch of 'em) and the Marines are on
the reverse slope of a hill with the NVA coming up the other side --
close enough to see facial features, "we don't have much time".
The conversation goes something like this:
Covey: What kind of ordinance are you carrying?
Orson: 2 aircraft, 2 2,000# each.
Covey: Damn, not too good for close air support, but we have no alternative, choppers can't get to Marines in time.
OS: Give me good mark and tell the Marines to get their heads down, way down.
Covey: Roger, smoke rockets on the way shortly.
By this time, I can see white top of wings of the Covey (a piper cub
like aircraft) and he is at about 3,000 feet. I am approaching him from
the south and once smoke hits he tells me Marines are at 6 o'clock a
couple of hundred yards away. Not good! I am in the position and in a
time press that my dive azimuth will be right over the top of the
Marines, a short drop would be catastrophic.
I am around 15,000 feet. I tell my wingman to orbit and standby for
another run if necessary. I roll upside down, to better observe the
smoke rocket hit, pull through into a 45 degree dive (Bing has this and
my speed wrong in his write up), seeking to make damn sure I do not
short drop -- to do that, I must make sure I achieve 500 kts at release
altitude, have the 45 degrees, have the pipper right on the target and
drop a wee bit below the prescribed drop altitude (man, it would have
been great to have these computer systems of today.). As I recall,
release altitude was 6,000 feet, going below that with the 2,000# runs
risk of frag damage.
Man, I am saying a few prayers. I pull it together as best possible,
release both bombs simultaneously, pull almost 6 gs (a bit excessive,
popped some rivets upon post flight inspection) and head skyward
rolling up on a wing as energy takes me upward. I see the explosion
aftermath, a huge cloud of dirt, dust and explosive matter. I await a
report from the FAC, he says nothing (he is talking to the Recon Team
on FM, as I recall, which I did not have). After incredibly long
seconds, I say, "Covey, what happened?" He responds, "Wait one", my
heart sinks.
Then, he comes up and says, "Direct hit, attack on Marines terminated,
major damage, and the Marines said, "Don't drop any more of those
bombs! We are being pelted by huge boulders and trees".
Helos came in, picked up the now-near-deaf Marines and took them home. My flight returned to DaNang.
A couple of days later, I am sitting alert duty on the hotpad and this
red-clay covered Marine captain comes into the hotpad tent. He is
covered in red clay and the expression on his face reminded me of Wiley
Coyote in the old Road Runner cartoons --- his eyes were a
spectacle to observe.
He asked for me, then said, "I'm Bing West, and I was with that Recon Team you helped!"
The alert pad alarm goes off immediately after he said this and I had
to launch on another mission supporting our Marines. Bing and I had
barely spoken. I would not see him again and you know what happened to
both of us after that. ( Interestingly, we were both in the Reagan
Administration as Asst Secretaries).
I remembered the name, Bing West, when I was in prison. Back in 2003 or
so, I get a call from a former squadronmate who knew this story. He was
up in NJ and had attended a wedding and met another Marine,
conversation began with none other than Bing West. My squadronmate said
that he flew F8s, and Bing replied, "I have an F8 story". My
squadronmate got us in contact, and Bing and I had a 3 hour long lunch
at Capital Grille a few weeks later. Fascinating to put the two
perspectives together. Bing said the Team was inundated with boulders
the size of basketballs and literally tree trunks.
Bing sends me autograph copies of each book, usually inscribed with
something like, "This book would never had been written without your
help! Semper Fi."
Bing and I stay in touch. He is a remarkable man, and I am honored to call him a friend."
Orson Swindle via Tank Livingston 909
Regarding the PC vetting of call signs, I went to Top Gun when it was
still at Miramar in the '92 time frame for a ground school course to
support some NASA future fighter development work, and the PC movement
was wielded at Miramar with a vengeance. The CO, Capt. Bob "Puke"
MacClean (former VFP-63 RF-8 pilot), told me he had to change his call
sign to "Mac," and a Marine Captain, last name Ore whose previous call
sign had been "Gasm" was noticeably uncomfortable when his buddies in
our class called him that. He pointedly told them, "My call sign is now
"Iron" by decree of higher authority." This was just after Tail Hook
'91. One of my younger NASA buddies who flew F-18s in the Reserves until
just a few years ago told me things had moved more toward the old days,
but there was still some restraint more on the local command level than
higher up.
Rob "Moon (possibly politically incorrect depending on interpretation)" Rivers
910
In the late 60's, when all the RF8A's were converted to RF8G's during
the SLEP program, 141363 was one of those converted. I flew it several
times in the 70's. The last time I flew it was in January 1975. If you
look at the photos, you can see the air scoops that were added when the
RF8G's were converted to carry the P420 engines. I could be wrong, but I
believe this bird was lost at NAS Dallas when a pilot entered the
break, pulled too hard, lost it, and took out a BOQ there. This picture
was taken when it was assigned to a det operating off the east coast. In
the mid-70's, the Navy started to put VFP-63 dets back on the big decks
on the east coast.
Scott Ruby
911
This is in response to Norm Green's history of RF-8G - Buno 141363. I
cannot vouch for what it did earlier in life, but I flew it for the
first time in April of 1977. It was assigned to VFP-63, Det 5. I believe
it may have made a barricade arrestment prior to it coming back to
VFP-63 in 1977. I last flew 141363 while aboard USS America, (CV-66), on
July 06 1977 while in transit to Rio on a South American mini cruise.
On July 18, 1977, Buno 141363 made its last flight on the fly off from
CV-66 to NAS Miramar. It crashed on the second leg of the flights going
home and landed in the BOQ at Navy Dallas, (NBE).
I am sure of this at the 100% mark as I participated in the accident
investigation and it was the aircraft with my name on it. ( I was not
flying it at that moment).
Barry Gabler
912
Of the 144 F8U-1P/RF8A birds purchased by the Navy, they were bought in
three lots: 144 series, 145 series, and 146 series (plus 141363) over a
three year period of time from 1956 through 1958. 87 - that is all
there were left of the original 144 - were converted to RF8G's. All
BUNO's remained the same. When the last bird was retired, there were
approximately 23 air frames left in existence. Besides the ones
currently on display in various museums, there are at least 4 left in
storage at D-M.
Scott Ruby 913
There are a few stories about the F-11 painted in the Blues colors that
was pedestaled at the entrance to Pensacola Regional. I had a coveted
interest in the jet because it had Herb Hunter's name on the fuselage.
As a fresh nugget ensign Herb was my instrument instructor in VF-126
when they did such things in 67. I believe Herb was a Lcdr @ the time
& one of the highest ranking officers I was ever associated with
& an impressive pilot. I was one who needed a lot instrument
training. He trusted me to a hooded touch down @ NKX; never thought
much about that until now. It was my first & last including coupled
approaches later in my career. He helped me build confidence in my
instrument flight proficiency. A year or so later after the RAG ,I was
a must pump & joined 211 mid-cruise Tonkin Gulf embarked either
Bonnie Dick or Hancock (I do not remember & might have some facts a
little out of order, Mo Wright, John Barlow etc & others might be
able to add to the rest was this story below). Now things get a little
fuzzy. Sometime while in the Gulf Herb off another carrier F-8 squadron
got shot up with 1000 pounders on the wings and was experiencing
control problems. I was in the ready room watching plat landings. I
believe it was night or dusk. Herb for what ever reason was coming
aboard (BHR?) Short of the ramp his F-8 pitched up struck the ramp. It
was really difficult for me to take after learning who the pilot was...
Bill Bertsch 914
Commander Herb Hunter, XO, VF-162, CAG-16, was killed July 19, 1967
attempting a wing-down landing aboard USS Oriskany with a combat
damaged plane and sidewinders aboard. He did NOT hit the ramp but went
off the angle and into the water uncontrolled. It was a very hard
touchdown, enough that both missiles broke off the rails and skidded up
the deck into the water. As I remember, there was no ejection attempt.
He was perhaps the finest Naval Officer and pilot I ever knew.
R.I.P., XO
John Braly 915
Herb Hunter was our XO in 1967, VF-162 onboard ORISKANY. Herb was shot
up, lost utility hydraulics and didn't have enough fuel to divert or to
make it to the Mighty O, so BONNIE DICK was in trail of O, I was
standing on the platform listening to their LSO as Herb was attempting
a wing down landing and with no drops, they failed to blow out. As I
remember, he had a hung 750lb bomb on one wing, he went a bit high in
close and "went for it", broke up on deck and went off the angle into
the water. I can still remember watching as the a/c made a big splash.
Interestingly enough, Bob Rasmussen (sp?) was the XO of our sister
squadron, VF-111 and he and Herb had been in the Blues at the same
time. They married twins from Pensacola and Bob resides there to this
day, closely associated with the Museum. Herb was a great guy and was
replaced by Bob Aumack, who had been the skipper of the Blues when they
were flying the long nose F-11, not sure if Raz and Herb were on the
Team at the same time or not.
Cheers, Ron Coalson 916
while stationed at Pax River from 1958 to 1960 I witnessed a Crusader
crash while being catapulted from the test cat. When airborne it became
uncontrollable and hit a helicopter that had just delivered two AF
pilots who had earlier ejected from a B-57 Canberra. Then continued on
after the pilot ejected and hit an ambulance and crash truck. Two were
killed in the helicopter and one in the ambulance and one in the crash
truck. The pilot survived but I believe he lost both legs.
Thank you,
Jack Carson 9817
At the time of this accident at Pax I was engineer in charge of the F-8
Martin Baker seat program at Chance Vought Aircraft Company.
I don't remember the date but do remember this accident because of
the unusual circumstances and incredible results. The pilot in this
incident was a Marine Captain named Parsons.
My recollection: He launched off of a ground catapult, never
attained takeoff speed and was riding on ground effect. As the airplane
started to roll Parsons ejected. No time for the system to fully
operate. The small drogue was deployed as he hit the runway sitting in
the seat. Both legs were shattered but he survived. Vought field rep
Gene Barbee was the first to reach him.
Parsons survived but lost several inches of bone from both legs.I
understand he eventually returned to active duty. As noted, the airplane
wreaked havoc as it crashed.
One fact that this accident demonstrated: If you are going to hit
the ground in an ejection seat and survive, let it be a Martin Baker.
The drogue system and the strength of the seat are the keys. A number of
Crusader pilots survived such accidents.
Footnote: The Martin Baker seat program was very controversial with
lots of opposition from the fleet until the Kryway ejection form the
Roosevelt in 1962.
Dick Atkins
918
Re the F8 crash at Pax River. The pilot was Maury Parsons with whom I
did a Banshee 4 cruise on the Hancock in 57'. He was an outstanding
pilot and had a wing come off of the F2H4 in a practice rocket run off
the ship. He was thrown out of the ac as it came apart and pulled the
chute and did one swing and hit the water and retrieved by chopper with a
sprained shoulder and his face was all puffed up from the 450kt
airstream. At Pax the accident was caused by an off center cat shot. The
aircraft turned sideways and was scraping along the deck in burner.
Maury ejected while the ac was on its wing tip and just scrapped along
the deck for some distance. I believe he never separated from the seat
and suffered very severe injuries to his legs. I'm told a flight surgeon
stayed with him on the runway for an hour or so keeping him alive. He
was hospitalized for close to a year and ultimately recovered but was
about 4" shorter when he got out. He had a tough time with morphine
addiction but ultimately beat it. Last time I saw him several of us went
to a Dodger game in LA circa 62'. He was up and down several times
going to get us beer. Side note, he was Bob Mathias's roommate at
Stanford.
Jerry Mitchel 919
As a member of the MB seat ride club, I can tell you it worked well. I
left the carrier deck in the Identical spot that Terry Kryway did but
with a flame out vs hydraulic problem. The F8 bounced over the 1 wire
and hook skipped 2,3, and 4. I had lots of things running through my
mind, thought I could stop the aircraft on the deck as the motion seemed
so slow rolling out, full brakes and no seeming deceleration changed
that thought, then it occurred I might ride the plane into the water but
canceled those plans! Then ejection came into my little mind. I reach
up grabbed the curtain and pulled, only to see via peripheral vision the
canopy just crack open. Again thoughts turned to a water landing-- uh
crash. At about the time it took to think that, air pressure finally
raised the canopy and it ripped off, the seat fired and the rest is
history. A great ending to a great seat, installed in a great aircraft.
Larie VF-62
Larie Clark
920
I did not get a date on the bad day at Pax, but here is more of the story from my Catwalk column back in Fall '06.
cheers, Boom
---
Pax Not Peace(ful)
In the late 1950s, when Nick Mulich was working on the Service Test
flight line at NAS Patuxent River, he looked up and saw three parachutes
descending toward the middle of the airfield. He and the other Navy
mechs rushed to the maintenance office radio and learned an Air Force
B-57 Canberra had had a total electrical failure. The crew had set the
controls to fly out to sea in a slow dive and bailed out over the field.
The station crash-wagon picked up the crew members and took them to the
base hospital. Twenty minutes later the empty Canberra made a U-turn
and crashed a hundred yards from the Great Mills Elementary School. Half
the base fire brigade was sent to fight the fires next to the school.
An hour later, a USAF helicopter which had picked up the Canberra
crew was hovering near the control tower prior to departure. A Marine
pilot doing tests of arresting gear rigged on the adjacent runway had a
control failure and his F-8 Crusader pitched straight up. The pilot
punched out in a vertical climb about fifty feet off the runway. The F-8
stalled and fell. When the tail hit the runway it went into burner,
rotated level and went screaming off the runway twenty feet off the
ground. The Crusader hit the helicopter, tore through the fire station
and the parking lot behind the tower and demolished a couple dozen cars
before it ground to a flaming halt. The ejecting pilot had serious
injuries and the helicopter crashed, but there were no injuries at the
fire station because it was empty with the fire fighters out on the
field or at the school.
Less than half an hour later, a Connie (WV/EC-121) caught on fire
while being fueled and burnt to the ground because the crash crew was
scattered all over the place putting out other fires.
Boom Powell
921
Following is an interesting note from my friend Chet Alexander, a fellow
naval intelligence officer, who is a retired Captain, USNR. His comment
is in the context of my letter to the editor of Navy Times in "defense"
of the F8's role in the Vietnam War. Does anyone know the F8 pilot he's
describing? Are you still out there?.
Roger Wenschlag
---
Has anyone else acknowledged your recent letter in Navy Times? Just read it and wanted to agree.
I recall, as an AICS on NorthSar in the summer of '70, controlling
an F-8. I can't recall his name or call sign but he was a great
harmonica player. He liked to play the "Red River Valley" while acting
as my BarCap at 25+ K. It was great for morale. Our horse's ass skipper
sent a message to the guy's CO telling him to knock is off.
922
OK---So they finally got me!
That was Varmint Flight--Fox and Coyote (Chuck Scott). We were in
VF-111 (Sundowners) on Tico and Shang. Had to do something to kill the
time....
Chuck Dimon (Skipper) said for the CO to "Pump Sand".
Most requested song was "Yellow Rose of Texas"
Redman the Reed Man-------Life is good!
Red Best, 923
the harmonica player was Red Best (LCDR at that time), better known as
the Red Fox. Red is now a retired Admiral living in Merritt Island
Florida. He is still playing the harmonica and just played a benefit
with Jimmy Buffett the week before the LACB in Pensacola. It was done at
the Naval Air Museum and was sold out weeks before the concert. No
doubt because everybody knew that Red would be playing. He and Jimmy
Buffett have been good friends for years ever since Red was CO of NAS
Key West. In his book "A Pirate Looks at Fifty", Jimmy credits Red as
the reason he is still alive after his Grumman Wigeon flying boat turned
turtle in Long Island sound on takeoff. Red had insisted that he go
through water survival before he would let him get a jet ride and
carrier landing.
I can attest that it was Red who used do the harmonica concerts on
Red Crown barcaps because I was his wingman. I was the Coyote and
together we were the Varmint flight. He is as colorful and talented as
ever if you saw him at the LACB.
Chuck Scott 924
The harmonica player would have been now, RADM Red Best, USN (Ret), one
of the best harmonica players I know. He loved to serenade the
controllers and many of us were often asked if he would be airborne that
night. Red Crown, (or maybe Northsar), would be disappointed if he was
not scheduled that evening. He's fine and still playing. The squadron
was VF-111, Sundowners with the call sign "Old Nick".
Bob Pearl
925
Great story about Larie Clark's experience!! I had it pleasure of flying
with him in VF-931 out of NAS Willow Grove in the late 60's. Don't
remember his recitation of the story below, but one that was squelched
occurred in 1967 that I well remember. After a flame-out over the Pax
River restricted area, he glided his F8 over to the Delaware Bay
preparing to eject. On spotting Dover AFB instead he successfully did a
dead stick landing, saving the bird and perhaps himself.
Larie, all the best and please contact me (207) 797-2833.
Vince Furey 926
Regarding the Crusader III:
While it was true the VA potential was limited (I thought we were in
fighters). It is also true the III started melting at 2.6 M and that
was with a J75 engine tweaked by the boys at Pratt. It was waiting on
the J58 to be developed different story with that baby. The test pilot
said it would have passed 3.0 M as it was still accelerating when it
started melting.
The real reason it was dropped was that the Navy wanted two man crew
and two engines so it didn't matter how highly it was developed. Dorky
thinking but that is what happened.
Dudley Moore 927
Yes the S-Crusader Vmax was limited by canopy bow stagnation temp but I
met a gent on my TPS class trip (1972) at P&W who flew it and told
me that he had it out to 2.8M and had to throttle back to stay within
limits. Anyone out there that flew it?
Check 6, Bill West 928
I was at Service Test at the time of the NPE. Dudley Moore is
essentially correct about a two man crew and two engines. Another
important factor was the radar - there wasn't a GOOD radar that just one
person (the pilot) could operate effectively (probably the last good
one-man radar before the NPE was the APS-6 in the F6F-5N, or maybe the
APS-19 in the F4U-5N).
There just was not much good radar development in those days.
Don Shelton
929
All this talk about radars and guns brought back the memories. All true
of course, the best shooter was always the lite nose deuce with the APG
67 radar and the GARO (guns automatic ranging only) posit. When it
started making noise you pulled the trigger. When it stopped making
noise you let go. That was all our Stinger soaked brains could handle
anyway. Pass the nachos set me on fire one more time.
Dudley Moore
930
VFP-63 used its "Papa Papa" (PP) tail letters on detachment aircraft
from Korea until around 1967 when the dets adopted the tail codes of
whatever air wing they were attached to for deployment: NL, NM, NP, etc.
Not sure if there was some sort of edict at the squadron or force
commander level. Det 1's use of VF-24's "fast check" flash must have
been between them and VF-24. Usually VFP-63 dets either retained
standard squadron markings on their birds or came up with a custom paint
job. At the very least we would stencil a det logo or mascot cartoon on
the bird. In Det 2 on the 1971 Midway cruise we had our "Recon Reptile"
lizard mascot painted on the tail. Later on the det used the "Dirty
Granny" character from Buck Brown's cartoons in Playboy. She replaced
our lizard on the tail.
Jerry Nolan
931
The exact date behind this story is chronicled in a diary I wrote during
1965. It's a date I could check on, if, at later it becomes necessary
to connect the dots from any further info.
The Place: Primary Flight Control
The Players:
Myself - Recording in the log, all departing flights.
Danny - Running the Status Board
Air Boss
CIC - Combat Information Center
Cat Man - Guy down at the starboard catapult
F-8 - Side # 107
All sorties in this flight of approximately 20 aircraft, except two,
have departed for this mission. An F-8 taxis underneath my position,
heading toward the starboard catapult. I miss seeing the side/tail
number. Upon reaching the starboard catapult, I call on the sound
powered phone to the guy on the starboard catapult.
"Give me the number of that aircraft."
He answers, "107."
I look at the status board. There are only two remaining aircraft to
depart. Aircraft 107 is one of them. It, along with the other data
relating to it, is listed on the board. I fill in the log book, except
for the departure time. That gets called at the moment I see the tail of
the plane dip after passing over the bow of the ship.
Aircraft 107 takes off. Two minutes have passed since the previous
aircraft took off. Though nothing to write home about, I made a mental
note of the fact, 'it took 2 minutes instead of the usual 1 minute.'
Another F-8 taxis onto the port cat. When it takes off, another 2
minutes have passed between it and 107. Again, now it's two aircraft
with 2 minutes between them instead of the usual 1 minute. I take note
of it. No biggie, though.
No sooner has the final aircraft left the ship when CIC comes up on
the horn. CIC asks, "Why did you call off 107? It never took off."
I tell CIC, "It took off." (How could I not know. It was only 2-3 minutes ago and with a mental note.)
CIC: "No it didn't"
Me: "It took off. I'm up here. You're down there. I saw it take off."
CIC: "We have cameras up there. No it didn't. It's still on the hangar deck."
Things to note at this point. When I called off 107, neither the Air
Boss nor Danny, contested it. None said, 'Are you out of your mind? No
aircraft is taking off."
After getting rid of CIC, the Air Boss hollers over to me, "Mertz, why did you call off 107. It never took off."
OK, in steps the 'Twilight Zone'. Not in my wildest imagination can
this happen. CIC is one thing. The Air Boss, who, by-the-way, is up here
with me, is quite another.
"Commander, it took off"
"No it didn't"
Danny: "Commander, I saw it take off."
Me: "Commander, the number of aircraft I called off IS the number
that will come back, if we don't have any shot down on this flight."
Air Boss: "Take it out of the log."
Had the Air Boss said, "Come over here. Now, listen, don't ask any
questions....Just take it out of the log," I would have done so.
However, under the circumstances, my being positive that the NUMBER OF
AIRCRAFT I called off is correct, precluded me from doing so.
(One could quibble over the possibility, sortie planning was wrong,
the status board was wrong, the guy on the cat was wrong and the fact I
didn't see the number....But, the number of aircraft I called off was
correct.)
I asked another petty officer, (Quietly), "Hey, you come over here and take it out of the log. I'm not gonna to do it."
Aircraft 107 never returned. One less aircraft than I called off came back. None were lost on this flight, per the record.
During a period of two or three weeks after this occurrence,
someone, I can't recall who, came to me and said that 107 was lost in a
storm. Firstly, I couldn't reconcile why they would even bother to come
to me to tell me that. Secondly, losing an aircraft in a storm is not a
usual occurrence.
Years have passed. Checking the Chance/Vought website, I find no
F-8's having been lost or destroyed during that few week time period.
Let's find that aircraft and who flew it. Maybe we will find out what really happened.
Cheers Friend,
George Mertz
932
To the best of my memory,the first Navy customers of Trader Jon's were
"Diamond Jim" Brady and myself. We were advanced cadets, (Pre-flight
class 22-52) and Brady invited me to visit his favorite watering hole. I
can't remember the name of the joint. Brady asked the bartender,
Where's (Name forgotten--Brady would remember.)
"She's not here. I just bought this place from her." He proceded to
tell us his plans. He wanted to make it a "South Seas Island" type
saloon. Several years later,after my first sea tour, I became a flight
instructor at Whiting Field. My first visit to downtown Pennsacola, I
popped into you know where. It had become Trader Jon's. We recognized
each other immediately. (Trader never forgot anybody.) Over the years, I
visited Trader's on cross-countries both as active duty and reserve
sqadrons.
It was a fun place.
Bob (known as Slim during those days. I'm still slim, but haven't
had a drink in more than 30 years. I had gotten my share by then!)
Tinsley
933
Since Trader Jon stories seem to be the subject of the day, I'll pass
along my favorite. I guess that I can say that I was born at a very
opportune time since trader was there when I went through flight
training and still slinging the brew long after I retired. My favorite
visit to his establishment happened in the late "80's. I had been
retired for several years and was working as an engineering manager for
Westinghouse Electric in Hunt Valley, Md. I was part of a group of
aerospace managers on a 10 day tour of Air Force bases assessing Air
Force avionics maintenance. After spending 2 days in the frigid Feb
weather at Ellsworth AFB we flew to the sunny south to Eglin AFB.
Actually, it was cold at Eglin; but it felt like a summer day at the
beach compared to South Dakota. On our first night there my fellow
travelers were mulling over where to spend the evening. I volunteered to
lead them to a nice little pub in Pensacola and,yes, Traders was the
destination. As luck would have it Trader was on the scene and it was
rather busy. Now I'm sure Trader didn't remember my name; but as I
approached the bar there was a smile of recognition, a bit of a half
salute, and a beer came sliding across the bar; and I swear to god it
was the brand I would normally drink. I agree with anyone who tells you
that he never forgot a face. The other managers with me were absolutely
stunned by the place, the atmosphere, and the camaraderie. Many of them
were straight civilians with no military background. I truly believe
that one evening at Traders gave them more understanding of the
traditions and meaning of military aviation than they had received in
their entire lives. Trader was a hell of a recruiter.
Norm Green 934
I took the barricade in F-8E BUNO 149222 February '68. I had 0 oil
pressure for over an hour coming back from Haiphong, had the power set
at 86% and had not touched it. Crossing the ramp the LSO, Dick "Tiny"
Paschall, called for a little power, when I added it, the engine quit. I
hit the barricade with the engine silent and no hook, but it stopped
me. Probably better that the engine quit without a hook.
Fun times to be sure!
Hoss Pearson
935
I checked into VF-103 in '62 in time to make squadron workups in the
Crib onboard USS Forrestal. I was THE ENSIGN NUGGET in the squadron and
getting my feet on the ground so to speak. I flew Denny Brooks wing and
was learning the ropes like a good Nugget. We were doing day ops off
Haiti in beautiful tourist weather and wanting to look good around the
ship. I was second down and feeling pretty good about my approach ,
carrying a little ball high. Felt I needed a little boost and added some
throttle when the engine started to unwind. I slammed her full up and
started to settle. Elmer Perry/Joe Ruchala were LSO's waving and called
for POWER ... Heck, I was committed and just tried to raise the nose for
some help -- and got just enough to get a one wire ... engine dead ...
Yellow shirt giving me the "What the ...?" look. Got pulled out of the
wires and had no idea what happened. Needless to say it got a lot of
attention also since it was 200 side number with Capt Buddy Yates name
on it ... Apparently the Air Boss had some words but my radio was dead
also.
The LSO debrief by Perry was most memorable but I held to my story
that it quit on its own and I DID NOT SHUT IT DOWN ... Ralph Rutherford
was maintenance and had the bird on elevator four before I could hide my
wings ... Gene Conner jumped in the cockpit and tried to start the
Sader ... But I would not start -- I felt my future now was elsewhere
... maybe back to cattle ranching. Gene switched to Manual Mode and she
started ... Now I felt my career was really down the crapper, didn't
know he was in Manual -- BUT when he switched back to Normal on the fuel
control ... She unwound all the way to nothing ... Rutherford said "You
might amount to something yet."
Investigation found the fuel control had split on the Normal side and was dumping fuel from entering the engine.
Might say it was my first "Holy Crap" moment, but it was a dead engine on arrival at wire rollout.
Great memories -- but some you just never forget.
Red Best 936
The Last Stand of the RF-8
Back in 89-90 I was on a recon into DM and saw a row of planes in
front of the ops shack. In the middle were 6-7 RF-8s, skidding to a
stop, I bailed out of the rent a heap and went for a closer look. They
were all in ready for launch condition new tires and all ... Hello, what
is this? I went into the ops shack and the relic behind the desk came
to life. I said "Hey, what's the story on those F8s out there?" He
replied, "Oh that's the ready line, all a/c there have to be in flyable
condition in 30 days." Going back out to look again, this was
unbelievable, now what would the Navy or anybody else want with this
much photo capability anyway? What is going on out there I don't know
about? Must be a war, pestilence, plague thing. One thing for sure,
never going to see anything like this again ... I was right. In many
ways the RF was best of the breed ... slick, big engine, lots of gas and
could that thing move.
Dudley Moore
937
Did you ever lose your hat in Trader's? Several of us did! In 1974-77, I
worked in the OSD (Program Analysis and Evaluation) TACAIR for a guy
named Tom Christie. He was John Boyd's buddy and the two of them were
the fathers of the lightweight fighter program. Tom approved and rammed
through my first-ever issue paper for the '76 budget that bought the
Navy's first 1,423 F-18's, over the violent protest of the Tomcat's-only
crowd. He went on to become one of DoD's best-ever Directors of
Research and Development. Tom grew up in Pensacola in the '50s and told
me of the utter frustrations of being a teenager, etc. in a town where
all the local females had at least a couple NAVCAD's at their six. He
mentioned they used to go by Trader's late on Saturday nights and exact
revenge by "lifting" a couple NAVCAD hats. I asked him to check his
attic to see if one of them had SCHAFFERT stenciled inside. Anyone else
want him to check for theirs?
VR Brown Bear
Dick Schaffert
938
Stu Harrison was in VF-62 when the so-called dead-stick landing was made
and so was I. I was watching his landing from Pri-Fly. Everything
seemed normal except after the landing he could not taxi out of the
wire. LSO said, "He looked good passing by me." Of course many were
quick to say that Stu shut the engine down after the trap. He swore that
it quit just before the trap. Maintenance could not find anything wrong
with the aircraft. As the maintenance test pilot, I was assigned to
make the next flight with the bird. They shot me off, at anchor, to fly
the aircraft to the Naples Air Station for more inspections. (What a
kick that was!) Of course many pictures was made of the "anchored cat
shot" for review in case something happened. A cat shot at anchor is
thrilling enough, but the excitement was increased because on the last
flight the engine quit on this aircraft. LCDR Gilchrist, Ops Officer of
VF-62, with slide-rule in hand, assured me that I would have enough "end
speed" to fly. I did. They never did find anything wrong with the
aircraft.
Ron "Astro" Knott
939
Howie Bullman and I were assigned to hot pad (alert) duty in Key West
in October 1962 at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. We
intercepted two Mig 17’s that had been making gun runs on the P2V
and P3Vs that were taking pictures of the missiles coming into Cuba on
the Russian Ships. They were scared shitless. We blasted
off in burner and went supersonic right away. We were vectored right in
behind them and they never saw us. I thougt, Holly Moley, I am in the
Squadron 3 months and I am going to get my first kill.
Howie called for permission to fire when, I thought we had clearance
under the “rules of engagement” at the time. Brownstone
(GCI site) called the War Room and we were told to RTB. I was
pissed at Howie for 25 years over that, but he was right in what he
did. We could have begun World War 3. Things were that tense at
the time.
It is in my book, Silver Step 210, in the chapter titled, “The end of the World”.
Jim Brady
940
I had an engine quit on very short final after about 30 minutes of 0 oil
pressure coming out of the DMZ area with Jeff Woodfield in June, 1972.
Dodged some fire and that damn yellow oil light came on. I wasn't
planning on a dead stick landing, but I remembered the final report on
the F-8 that went into the hangars at Miramar years before. The bottom
line of the accident report said the engine could run from minutes to
over an hour with no oil pressure, so I set the throttle at a "known"
percentage and rode it back. 92% was the last power setting I saw on my
trap the day before, so I set 92% and adjusted the speed for the descent
and approach using just the speed brake and configuration changes. It
rumbled about 200 yards out, smoothed out, and quit for good at the
ramp. Perfect Taxi, one wire and I climbed out of her right there - just
past the 4 wire; to the chagrin of the Air Boss, but to my delight!
Litning [Pete] Phelps
941
I had the good fortune of using the NATOPS procedure for a hung throttle
on our bird. Flying off the Oriskany In 1965 on a test hop the throttle
hung up at 90%. No option to get on the ship so we diverted to Danang
and flew the published procedure to get on the ground, had my wingman
who happened to be Harry Sexton talk with me as we flew the pattern. On
the first entry into the so called "loop", Harry said "shut it down".
For some reason my finger would not hit the master fuel switch for the
first try. Broke out in a sweat and said let's do it one more time. We
did and I managed to shut it off rather than look at a controlled crash
on the runway. It all worked as published and I landed with no problems
and rolled out on the runway.
Fond memories never go away.
Moose Lutes
942
In the summer (maybe spring) of '70 over the Caribbean south of GTMO in
beautiful tourist weather, I was leading a flight of four F8K back to
GTMO. We had been the aggressor force in a hostile threat exercise
against USS Forrestal. We were in left echelon descending through angels
10 gathering speed for a "lots of knots" right break over the Leeward
Point tower to impress our F4 visitors from USS Forrestal. Just past
angels 10 and passing 450 knots, I noticed 2 and 3 were not flying very
good formation and 4 was cracking the whip. Then 2 began whining about
my ham fist on the throttle so I got my head back in the cockpit from my
formation critique and noticed an engine rpm fluctuation of plus and
minus 5%. I verified that I wasn't causing it, switched to manual fuel
control and regained control of the engine. I crossed the section to the
right, moved 2 to 4 and passed the lead to the section leader. I broke
away from the formation, informed GTMO approach control I had engine
issues and was sending the other three ahead to land. I climbed to
angels 15 to sort things out, switched to VC-10 SDO frequency and
briefly explained what was happening. A departure into the realm of poor
head work, according to superior officers, thus began. In the process
of "sorting things out", I must have violated at least a half-dozen
rules according to NATOPS including some "thou shalt's" and "thou shalt
not's". Being an aeronautical engineer and squadron QA Officer, I was
keenly interested to know the origin of the ill behavior of my airplane.
So, with NATOPS EMER PROC open to flameout and inflight restart, a
clean sheet of paper on the knee board and pencil in hand, I began the
process by violating the first "thou shalt not". I switched from manual
to normal fuel control and, predictably, the engine unwound. I switched
back to manual and rpm returned to set point (86%). Now let's see if I
can control the engine in manual. Carefully monitoring engine
indications, especially temperature, and gingerly advancing and
retarding the throttle, I noted engine response and indications were
good. OK (really dumb thing) let's confirm for maintenance guys that
normal fuel control is screwed up. I switch back to normal, engine
unwinds, catch it with throttle, oops too much and further attempts at
control just gave wilder excursions. It was as if there was a bungee
connection between throttle and fuel control. Switched to manual and
returned to GTMO. The Ops Boss and the AMO were both clamoring for a
piece of me before I even shut down. I gave a detailed write-up on the
yellow sheet with Ops Boss and AMO barking at me the whole time.
Maintenance changed the fuel control and the airplane checked OK.
Removed control was sent to AIMD for check. Bench check revealed a crack
that allowed the control to suck air and leak fuel. Next stop was the
Skipper's office (Bruce Ashley) - short, cleaned up version "Hinson,
what were you thinking? That was dumb, stupid and way above your
experience and pay grade. But you probably saved me an engine change and
a lot of man hours trouble shooting. Get out of here and don't do dumb
stuff anymore." By the way, less than a month later, I had Maintenance
Test Pilot designation in my training folder.
Bill Hinson
943
When I had the "oil failure " @ 35k over Japan as a nugget with J.
Barlow (superior aviator) as my lead. I remember him on the radio ...
just before dirty up ... "you are not going to land that are you?"
(F-8E 149220/6? for Gary's records not sure what happened to this Jet, I
thought it could be repaired ... remember I am an Ensign). I set up for
a dead stick approach into Itazuke International (joint use CIV/ USAF
airfield). I was not prepared @ engine seize when the RAT did not
provide enough hydraulic pressure to dirty up for landing or provide
adequate flight control pressure. I have a picture on my wall that I
admire & have fun with my fighter buddies & a few others showing
... the wing half way up, sidewinders mounted. guns loaded (diplomatic
complaint followed) main landing gear down, nose gear collapsed, nose
tire gone, hook down trailing chain link and AFB overrun cable over the
fuselage attached to the tail ... Touch down as I remember was 160 + Kts
on a 10k runway followed by uncontrolled porpoise. I reached for the
curtain several times but did not pull the handle. Rudders were the last
to go ... What an uncontrolled ride it was!!!. Much, much more to the
story. When I finally caught up with my CVA & Sqd VF-211 in the Gulf
2 weeks later Skipper (Paul Speer great ldr) told me that they were
calling it a combat loss meaning no accident report. Back flying combat
hops the next day.
My point is that the ... RAT ... was a show stopper for any dead
stick approach. It was not designed for dead stick landings, that's why
unofficially land dead sticks should go to Edwards AFB not Japan!
Bill Bertsch
944
Ref. the RF-8's in the Ready Position at DM.
After the 1991 Iraq War we had a briefing by the former CarDiv
Commander (Whose name I can't recall) in Pensacola. His remarks were
most interesting and informative. Having been a Photo Beanie for one
tour in VFP-62 I was especially interested in his complaint about having
to depend on the USAF for such handy info as BDA ,target ID etc. He
said all their air intelligence was always at least 24 hours or more too
late. During the QandA I asked "Why didn't you activate 5 or 6 RF-8's
prior to heading for the war?" That would have solved the problem before
it occurred." He was not happy with my question, to say the least.
Perhaps those were the planes that should have deployed with the 6th. Fleet in 1991.
Fang [Frank] Liberato
945
The RAT worked well at the speeds recommended for the flame out
approach, I flew from the PAX warning area to Dover with the RAT
extended for a good portion of that as I started losing control when the
engine wound down. I was also a little fast in the groove on account of
being a little high from final to ldg, hence a little fast touching
down at about 170 kts as I best remember.
Larie [Clark] 946
In June 1959, while VF-124 students were CQing on Midway, we lost LT Guy
McElroy when he diverted from the pattern with a stuck throttle and
attempted to land at Moffett Field. Guy was in my class in the RAG, was
USNA '54 with a couple of years of surface time before flight training. I
did not hear any of the radio conversations, but he did report his
throttle stuck at 83 or 85 percent and was told to go to Moffett. I
don't know what kind of instructions he was given by the squadron rep on
the ship or at Moffett. I know Capt F.X. Timmes [CO 124] was on the
ship at the time. When I heard in the ready room what his problem was, I
remember thinking that if he planned on turning off the fuel master
switch during the approach he'd better guess right on the timing,
because I knew from experience that the engine would run for about 30-40
seconds at idle on residual fuel in the lines. I had started the bird
with the master "off" only to have it die after the crew had pulled out
the probe. Evidently the engine ran long after he shut it down, because
he porpoised all the way down the runway and went nose first into the
mud off the end of the overrun. There was no low level escape capability
then and once he committed he was screwed. Maybe some of the other guys
who were there could add more, but I don't know what could have been
done other than to enter a high key dirty, turn off the master and hope
to dead-stick to the arresting gear. Nobody trained for that. A tragic
loss of a super gent.
John Holm
947
Re: J57 oil failures - 1966 - lost all oil in Haiphong harbor at 50ft
and 600+ knots. Didn't realize till engine light illuminated - the oil
pressure gage was a peanut gage. Set RPM at 86% and headed for Hancock
expecting to eject somewhere en route. The engine ran for 40 minutes and
got me aboard before the bearings fuzed on shut down. If interested,
see full story in Ron Knot's book - "How I came to love the J57."
Len Johnson - 948
Had a stuck-throttle event off the Shang-boat somewhere in the Med, late
'60s. Result was much less interesting than the problems other have
related lately, and I don't mind that one bit. Problem became apparent
upon an attempt to rdvs with other squadron a/c to RTB. What was to be
VSH scream onto bearing line and slide smoothly into position turned
into an inglorious scream right past and out in front of the rest of the
gaggle when the throttle refused to move back. Some twiddling revealed
that it would move fwd a tad but then not go back from the new position;
sort of a ratchet deal. What had been about 90% was now about 92%.
Don't recall what sort of decision making process we went thru, but the
decision was to attempt to trap, since that was a good approach power
setting, and it seemed as tho adding throttle wasn't a problem. Took
some gyrations to get slowed & dirtied up, but all went as hoped and
yup, throttle moved fwd just fine upon trap. But now it was stuck at
100%. A mighty two-fisted yank, something went "crunch" in the throttle
quadrant, and it was free again. One of those thumb-sized cockpit lamps
in the vicinity of the canopy rail had fallen in there.
Dave Johnson
949
I was returning to Cubi from Midway early in the morning in spring of
'64 and was about 70 out when my oil lite came on and I got a blast of
JP & oil in my face. Pulled the face mask down and naturally it was
the dark one. Engine continued running until I landed and then quit on
roll out. Problem was identified as a failure in the fuel-oil heat
exchanger so JP was sucked in for lubrication until the engine finally
failed.
Bob (RR) Johnson
950
I was flying a night AIC off Cubi from the O boat, VF-191 in post war
1973. After each intercept, when we separated, my fuel state was another
couple of hundred pounds or so less than Gil's ,Gil Vorhoff VF-194.
After 3-4 of these I asked Gil to rendezvous on me and check me out. He
said, "Track you have a one foot wide stream of fuel coming out of the
belly of your aircraft. PUCKER CITY!! Possible night ejection over water
or over the jungle of the PI. (As an aside if you had the choice, which
would you choose?? Water or jungle at night.) I called the boat, and
they immediately diverted me to Cubi, and detached a whale to me if I
needed gas. I thought later how excited that whale driver would have
been had I needed to actually plug into him- burning jet engine, raw
fuel, only 30' away from him. Had I exploded, I would have certainly
taken him out as well. Anyway I didn't need any fuel, and got back to
Cubi.
The fuel leak approach called for higher pattern speed, because of
the reverse airflow around the engine when slowing to normal landing
speed ( thus possibly putting the leaking fuel in a spot which might
ignite it), and then, once the runway was made, to shut off the engine.
Well I flew the pattern at the appropriate speed, but I'll be damned if I
was going to shut that engine down "feet wet," over Subic Bay. I did
shut it down as I crossed the threshold, rolled out, stopped, and jumped
out of the plane as it was surrounded by the crash crews. Even though I
felt I had enough gas to make the approach and landing, so I didn't
plug the whale, afterwards I heard that there was very little JP left in
my bird. The leak must have somehow accelerated in the latter part of
my landing.
$5 O ring.
The joys of flying the Crusader- best fighter aircraft ever built.
F.W./Track/Bubba Meyers
951
While taking off out of Barber's Point during the Midway ORI time in
1963, I get airborne, and the throttle will not move. How many of you
always hit the brakes after takeoff? I could get it to move by using
both hands, and using my knee against the instrument panel. Went back
into Barber's. Turns out, the throttle cable runs through the port wheel
well area, more or less protected by thin metal cover around it. We
were using retreaded tires at the time. A cost saving approach that did
not work too well. A long strip of rubber came off the tire, but did not
detach itself. It beat the crap out of the metal covering, kinked it,
and would not the throttle cable move freely. Straightened out the metal
covering and went out to the boat. Lesson learned.
Scott Ruby
952
This is a tale that tells better in the O-club bar after several "pops",
but I'll give it a try. Readers will have to visualize my hands moving,
with an adult beverage sitting in front of me.
To set the stage - There we were (me and Bob Fitzsimmons, VMF334),
at 30,000+ feet, a starry sky above, the thick cloud deck below covering
the Pacific Ocean and the MCAS El Toro, on a cold December 1966 night,
shooting Radar Intercepts.
The last run completed, Bob called for join-up, and a freq change to
get weather. We got the homeplate weather, and Bob called for a return
to Tac freq – at this point I was sliding into position on Bob's inside
wing, with the power at idle. Now, with the radio back on Tac, Bob
called "Flight Check". I started to apply power to move to his outside
wing - Just as my brain was formulating a signal to send to my thumb to
press the transmit button. That's when the excitement started.
When I applied power, there was a terrific "BOOM" with flame out the
front of the bird. I thought that I had exploded, and had a fire. Never
having heard of, much less experienced a compressor stall, in a flash I
asked myself what would "Sky King" do. Following my TV hero's example,
I rolled over, and pointed the nose down (way down) to get air into the
engine. As we had been taught to "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate", and I
had my hands full of Aviating, I still hadn't reported up on freq. Fitz
was on the radio calling for me, and chasing me down hill – fast.
Inside the bird, meanwhile, I continued to be too busy to talk. I
kept advancing the throttle, and each time was rewarded with another
explosion. The altimeter was unwinding fast, while the pressure altitude
was going up. I decided that I'd better turn off the comm and nav
before they over-temped. While doing that, I tried to imagine what
Grandpa Pettibone was going to say about this.
I finally got a good engine, and leveled out at around 10,000, still
above the cloud deck. My heart was trying its best to jump out of my
chest. I keyed the mike, ready to give an emotionally charged account of
the incident, but the radio was dead. I then remembered that I had
turned them off, so went thru the steps of getting them back on line –
during that time, I recalled the instructors at VT26 (F11) saying that
"you can tell when a Thug is in trouble – his voice goes up 8 octaves".
So, when I pressed the transmit button, I just said "Two's Up", then
calmly explained what had happened (while my heart was beginning to
slow from supersonic).
Epilog: Fitz was one of our Maintenance Officers, so the next day,
he scheduled a test hop in the problem bird (its cockpit having been
cleaned by then), with me in chase. As we leveled at 35,000, Fitz said
that he was going to start the test sequence. He then rolled over hard,
heading down – a compressor stall! The Nugget was exonerated. The Bird
became the premiere Hanger Queen, still there when we left for Nam in
Summer 1967.
Charlie Snell
953
Charlie Snell's account of a J57 with emotional problems reminded me of a
similar incident I had during a flight from CVA-42 in a recce bird. A
throttle advance from idle was met with rapid and continuous compressor
stalls at about 82%. Reduced the power and headed for NAS Sigonella. The
engine was purring nicely at low RPM, but anything above 82% was met
with an angry rebuke. Manual fuel made no difference. An F-4 joined and
said I looked okay to him, but he failed to notice that my nozzles were
open. All I knew was the flight was one with slowly eroding energy
state. Thankfully the weather was good. I arrived overhead with enough
altitude to trade for speed and landed. As I recall, the cause of the
compressor stalls was a bleed strap failure. The nozzle failure was
unrelated and very mistimed. After extensive therapy, the engine was
returned to healthier state of mind and plane returned to the ship a few
days later. However, I didn't fly it back since the CO of Sigonella
took exception to the excessive use of legally obtained, readily
available intoxicants and asked the FDR CO to send the COD for us. But
that's another story.
John Peck
954
I gained respect for the trusty J-57-P420 after an experience on BARCAP
off Haiphong in the summer of 1970. After the usual cycle of figure 8
patterns, we pushed up to "buster" back to the Shang. At 92 1/2 percent
the engine overtemped. It was otherwise smooth. So I set 92% and told
lead (don't remember who) of my engine problem. I do not recall making a
power change until military on the trap. Inspection revealed that a 6th
stage compressor blade had failed and there was not much remaining
behind that. With only 5 stages of compressor working it was amazing to
me that it ran at all.
Rick Hadden
955
The recent Engine accounts bring to mind in the summer of 63 while
filing a Flight Plan for Iwakuni at Cubi Pt. Ops. A Stranded Navy F8
Pilot asked if he could tag along and drop off over Okinawa as he had
been at Cubi for over a week waiting to get back to the ship. No problem
we said gave him the freq/s and call signs see you in the turn up area.
After take off and join up we headed north climbing to 45000'. However,
after passing 35000' he called said his oil pressure low warning light
was on. I dropped back so that I would be behind down and to the right
of his A/C. Then I could see what looked like a great wax job on the
side and bottom of the airplane just aft of the fuselage break. With
Okinawa 1000 miles ahead and Clark AFB 100 miles south it was a
no-brainer to go to Clark. As we descended thru 25000' we made contact
with Clark Approach and they said give us a call at 25 miles. With his
oil pressure now at zero and over "Headhunter Land": we declared an
Emergency their reply was "Roger you are #2 call field in sight we have
B50 refuler on fire #1. Right then I was glade my engine was running
good. Just with the good lord watching and luck he landed fairly close
to the B50 which had turned off the runway and on roll out the engine
seized.
Jim "Pudge"Parsons 956
As Robbie was my leader during my first cruise in VF-194 I can attest to
all of the previous stories, and agree completely with the many
accolades as well. He taught me a lot, was very patient and always
upbeat regardless of the situation. I don't remember the four plane
flight that H Dog Nelson described, but I do recall a similar foray into
the north that the two of us made. Shortly after we went feet wet with
our transponders back on, we heard a blue bandit call from Red Crown.
Since we were a little low on fuel and headed back to the ship, they
would not vector us to make the intercept. Robbie had turned us back in
that direction anyway, and we could see the mig contrails turn back
north just before the no-fly parallel (19th?). That was as close as he
ever got to a mig if I remember correctly. Too bad really as he used to
have a recurring dream about being in gun range and peppering a mig with
20mm. He would describe he HEI hits with the resultant sparkles as he
saw them in his dream! He had some great Korean War stories and his F4U
exploits. I have always been grateful he was my leader, One of the truly
good guys! He is missed.
Scotty Bates
957
During a flight of 2 from Miramar to Whidby Island August 26, 1961 ,over
southern Oregon, I experienced a massive main fuel line leak (line
broke) at 35,000. After penetrating an overcast, we broke out about
20,000, on our way to Klamath Falls AFB, when the fuel gauge went to
zero and the engine quit. I ejected and ,much to my surprise, I was
directly over Crater lake which is the deepest lake in north America.
The airplane went into the trees near the lake and I went into the lake.
Picked up by a Park Service boat after about 20 minutes in my raft.
Broken fuel line recovered, fatigue failure. The aircraft, an F8A BUNO
143708, had just come off of a four day carrier workup on the CORAL SEA
during which I had made several landings. All OK 3 of course.
Bill Boardman
958
Vic Riley, VF-111, my roommate, made a controlled ejection alongside
Midway during our '65 cruise. Everyone went to the flight deck to check
it out and I got some pictures here someplace of the whole thing. I kept
hoping he knew how to swim and get out of the parachute. He landed
right next to the ship on the port side; just as planned, but he left
the aircraft trimmed up and Terry Appelgate had a hard time getting rid
of it?!?
Keep your knots up – as speed is life!!!
Hot Dog Brown
959
Many moons ago I was having a few happy hour drinks with Robbie at the
Miramar Officers Club – we were bragging on our superior airmanship and I
finally turned to him and asked when he was going to let me fly one of
his 194 clunkers — after I peeled him off the ceiling he ordered me to
report to his office the next Monday and he would take me over to the
OFT and start a fam process — Thursday after completing a few OFT
sessions and a couple of lectures we took off — we did not go through
the usual slow-flight/stall events but rather Robbie jumped a couple of
airplanes and we got into a big dog fight -- we were doing OK but either
Robbie lost me or I lost him -- probably the latter — anyway I told
Robbie I was on the way back to shoot some touch and goes — after a
couple of those I looked over and there was Robbie on my wing making
sure I could land the machine.
I went home that night and told Marge how great the day had been and
how much fun I had flying the F-8. Next morning I go into the office
and on my desk I have message orders to VF-194 as PXO. I marched down to
his Robbie's office and threw the msg at him and said you really set me
up! He said "Jim I had nothing to do with that" -- I stomped out and
headed for main com where I asked the those folks if it was a real
message and they said of course -- then I called my old squadron mate
Ron Miller in placements and he confirmed the orders -- i am now
thinking Robbie really covered all the bases but I still could not
believe the orders were real because of all my prior Demon and Phantom
time – as you all know it turned out they were valid!
Looking back they were the greatest set of orders I ever received
and when I joined the squadron on Oriskany Robbie could not have been
nicer. All of the gents in VF-194 and 191 were the best -- some day
maybe I will be able to tell the difference between the UHT and the
stabilator.
Jim Ryan
960
During the flyoff back to Cecil Field, Jacksonville, returning from our
Med Cruise in '64 or '65, Skipper of VF-13, CDR. Jim Foster, rode a cold
catshot into the water off the port cat of the USS Shangri-la. Scraping
along the port side, with the cockpit under water and the thought of
the ships propellers at his six, CDR Foster ejected. Leaving the water
like Poseidon, he bounced off the sponson and fell back into the water.
The Rescue helo picked him up quickly and he was back on the flight deck
in a few minutes. Soaking wet, Jim came banging on my a/c wanting me to
get out so he could still make the flyoff! Ship's corpsmen finally got
him into a Stokes and took him to Sick Bay. Made for some happy time at
the O'Club that afternoon!!!
Harry Henning.
961
Harry Henning's recent letter about our skipper, Jim Foster's cold cat
brings back a few memories. As we got ready for launch, CAG was on the
starboard cat, Jim Foster was on the port. (The Shang only had two
cats.) Behind Foster was my boss, Dick Schaffert, and then me. Right
after the skipper went in the Atlantic at 60 kts, the deck handler
started giving Schaffert the signals to come ahead and taxi up to the
port cat. Schaffert shook his head to indicate no. The handler started
giving the come ahead even stronger. Schaffert continued to shake his
head left and right. Finally the Air Boss came up and said the port cat
was down. Then we were all directed over to the other cat. The rest of
the launch was uneventful.
A small side note: We all had new tan flight suits. One of the
smarter guys in VF-13 got the idea to dye them all red, the squadron
color. It seems when you put red dye in with a tan flight suit you get
grape, which is what we all looked like. With the delay caused by the
failure of the port cat, we sweated a lot. When we got home to our
waiting brides, our skin and underwear were all grape colored. It was
not all that sexy.
Larry Durbin
962
Here is the story of my "F8 Cold Cat" story. I have used this accident
in many ways to different audiences to underline the importance of
knowing the emergency procedures for which there is not time to refer to
your NATOPS or procedural manuals. It was very useful when I taught
Human Factors topics in the School of Aviation Safety at the Naval
Postgraduate School in Monterey. Especially so because while I
frequently went over my emergency ditching procedures and demonstrated
that I knew them cold, I tried to abbreviate them as much as possible
and left out the last part which was to inflate my Mae West which was a
major mistake (what Mark 3 C?). In conversations I had with my roomie
(Pat Crahan) after CAP (Combat Air Patrol) missions he would mention how
boring these flights were because all we did was fly in a race track
pattern about 200 miles from the carrier. I thought they were exciting
because the piloting requirements were so little I could practice my
emergency procedures and these got me all juiced up. He said something
to the effect that I must be some kind of masochist.
While I was told at the time that I was the first guy to get out
alive from an F8 cold cat shot and I have never had this part of the
accident challenged, I hope someone will speak up if this is not true.
The date was 28 July, 1959 aboard USS Midway, off the coast of
California during a missile shoot exercise.
During our brief in the ready room I was assigned an F8 with a
Bureau Number of 145390 (I don't remember the side number). Apparently I
arrived five minutes early to man my airplane because the squadron mate
who I was to replace on the "ready" (Harry Sarajian) was pissed. All of
us were trying to get as much flight time as possible and five minutes
could be crucial when a launch signal was given. I had to climb up on
the side of the ship and bang on the canopy to get Harry to get out.
It was shortly after getting all strapped in that we did in fact
receive the order to launch the F8's. After getting all hooked up to the
Sponson Catapult (the single cat on the angle deck) I gave the cat
officer the customary salute to indicate that I was ready to go. He
dropped his hand and away I went. However, about halfway down the track,
I heard a loud explosion under the nose gear, similar to a 20 MM canon
going off. Instantly my head came forward and my body slammed into the
shoulder straps from the change in acceleration. My speed was about 110
knots and I needed about 155 knots to fly. I immediately pulled back the
power, got on the brakes and tried to nose gear steer it up the axial
deck, (thinking I could get it stopped before going over the side).
However, when the catapult shuttle went out from underneath the F8 it
broke my hydraulic lines and thus made my nose gear steering inoperable.
In addition it was clear to me that my braking was ineffective on the
steel deck (plat photos show smoke coming from my tires). Therefore I
jammed the throttle back on planning to get burner and become airborne
with what deck I had left (hope springs eternal doesn't it !!!!.) As I
glanced at the engine RPM gauge, it became apparent that since it was
just spinning past 70 percent and I needed 87 1/2 percent before the
burner would light, I was going to get wet!!!! After I had completed
going over my emergency ditching procedures I still had about 25 feet of
deck left before I would reach the edge. At that point I remember
relaxing somewhat because there was nothing more I could do "until the
bubbles stopped". (Our water ditching training was adamant about
waiting until the plane stopped before trying to unbuckle and get out of
the seat). As I left the edge of the deck I had enough elevator control
to keep the nose about 30 degrees nose down. I didn't want to go
straight in because the plane would go too deep but I also didn't want
to hit flat because I was afraid it might break my back (163 foot
drop?). I remember the ride from the edge of the deck to the water as
being very pleasant and quiet as I watched guys along the cat walk
looking at me as I passed them and the gun turrets on the side of the
ship. When I hit the water all hell broke loose!!! The airplane
literally exploded. The wings came off, the engine blew turbine blades
up onto the flight deck and the front of the canopy broke. All I
remember seeing at that point was the pure white water coming into the
cockpit so forcefully that it pulled my oxygen mask to oneside as it
forced water down my throat even though my mask was securely fastened to
my helmet with hardeman fittings. With both hands I reached up and
pulled the mask back into place so it would act as a barrier to the
tremendous water pressure. The water pressure was so great it was like a
firehose being directed right into my face and the cockpit was filled
immediately with water. During this time it also seemed like the
airplane was being rolled around. I waited for what seemed like a long
time for the bubbles to stop. Then it started to get dark and I was
afraid I wouldn't be able to make it to the surface before I ran out of
air, so I pulled the ejection seat face curtain 3 times. Nothing. I then
realized I was going to have to get out of the airplane manually so I
pulled the "T" handle near the sunscreen which sheared the rear canopy
hinges and blew the canopy up about 6 inches from a 2600 psi bottle of
nitrogen. I pulled my umbilical cords (oxygen, g-suit, and radio
chords) with my left hand, squeezed my ditching handle with my right
hand, and chinned myself with both hands on the canopy bow to free
myself from the airplane. I breaststroke my way up to the surface of the
water and noticed that the carrier was now about a 1 1/2 miles away
from me. At this point I was gasping for air and because I had so much
weight mass (parachute, seat pack with raft and other supplies, boots,
torso harness, g-suit, helmet, oxygen regulator, mask, 38 pistol in
holster, belt of 38 ammunition, flight suit, survival vest with 10
pounds of equipment, and my uninflated Mae West. Every wave that came by
engulfed me because my mass was so great that I couldn't ride up with
it. It is important to note that I never remembered to inflate my Mae
West.
Every time I went over my emergency ditching procedure I left out
this part because I thought that any dip shit who was in the water would
naturally think to inflate his Mae West !!! But I was in what is
sometimes referred as cognitive overload. It was all I could do to keep
my head above water after each wave went by !!!! Fortunately it wasn't
necessary to attract the helo and in a short time they appeared over
head. They lowered the horse collar down slowly and I had to hold my
head under water to maintain a position correct for hoisting. Man was
that ever a chore!!! Gasping for air whenever I could and then finally
holding my head underwater while they took the slack out of the cable
and hoisted me up. When I finally got inside the door of the helo, the
crewman couldn't believe all the gear I had on me and kept saying all
the way back to the carrier "Jesus Christ you're a strong swimmer --
Jesus Christ you're a strong swimmer"!!!!!! finally, I said You'd swim
too !!!
After the traditional shot of brandy and return to the ready room
still soaking wet I went over to Harry Sarajian and said " Harry, I'll
never take your airplane again!!" Larry Renner, our schedules officer
said I told him I heard the screws of the ship go by as I sank with the
airplane. (some studies have shown that aircraft sink at about 7 knots)
About 2 to 4 days after the cat shot the tips of my fingers turned
black and blue. Previous to this accident I had always thought I was
somewhat of a wuss but the manner in which I reached for the various
handles and ripping out my umbilical chords by their roots apparently
suggests otherwise -- especially when the chips are down. You may not be
familiar with the way in which the liquid oxygen hose is secured to the
left console of the F8 but it takes two hands -- one to lift the cap,
which also serves to keep the hose 'connected to the console once the
spring loaded cap is released, and one to push the end of the hose into
the hole. It also takes this same coordinated effort to release the
hose. However, in my situation I pulled the whole dammed thing out by
its roots -- an unbelievable amount of strength -- with only my LEFT
HAND !!!! Thinking back on this I can hardly believe that it could be
done without first lifting the spring loaded cap -- even if you used
both hands much less just your left. It is amazing what we can do when
the adrenaline starts to flow
Two days later they shot me off again and this time it worked as
advertised. But just to emphasize what a tremendous effect this cold cat
shot had on me, every time after that when I saluted the cat officer my
whole body was in shaking convulsions all the way down to my feet on
the rudder pedals !!! The only way I could calm myself down after that
was to tell myself that it was going to happen again on this shot and
get ready. You did it before and your can do it again!!! Part of the
reason for my concern was the fact that the problem was not fixed. It
was a manufacturing defect in the swaged claw of the catapult pennant.
After my accident they reduced the number of uses of the pennant from
unlimited to 100. About 2 months later another F8 on the Hancock had the
same thing happen and they reduced the number of uses to 50.
Then about a month after that another F8 on the Hancock had a cold
cat caused by a bad pennant and they reduced it to 10!!!! So it might be
understandable why my body turned into a shaking blob on every cat shot
for the rest of our cruise -- (8 1/2 months).
As a funny footnote -- About the middle of our Far East Cruise, the
catapults themselves went down and no one could fly from the ship. Our
X.O. who was a test pilot school grad and looking for ways to
distinguish himself, took out his slide rule (no calculators in those
days) and said to the skipper during an All pilots Meeting (APM) , that
it was possible to deck launch the F8 without the catapults if we only
had half a fuel load and 40 kts. of wind over the deck. Needless to say I
was shitting bricks because I was sure they would launch one of the
most experienced water landing Junior Officers (JO'S) first. You can't
begin to imagine my relief when our brash maintenance officer said in a
loud voice," OK XO, here is the plan, we'll launch the Skipper first and
when he goes into the water we'll launch you and when you go into the
water, I'll be next in command and we'll shut this whole fuckin thing
down".
A few years later I ran into one our fantastic plane captains while
attending grad school. Naturally it was great to see him and as we
recalled the cold cat He told me that as the ship passed where I
splashed into the water he could see me in the cockpit struggling with
all the stuff that I had to do to get out. He said the water all around
the F8 was red and he thought at the time that it was my blood. (it
actually was the red hydraulic fluid from the breakup of the plane). It
was really moving to me as he recounted his memory of the accident
because tears came to his eyes as he told me his story. Our closeness in
the squadron was one of the things that I will cherish all the rest of
my life and his reaction to my accident was testimony to just one aspect
of that.
It is interesting that the fighter pilot spirit permeated the whole
squadron and I have never been in any organization which worked harder
or with as much dedication and attention to detail as that group. What a
privilege and honor to have served with such an incredible group.
Changed my whole life!!!!!
PS Important to remember this was before Zero Zero seats. Parameters at this time were 90 knots, 200 feet.
Hank Smith 963
I was a latecomer, my first F8 flight was in BuNo 143781, 21 November, 1958 at VF-174 at Cecil Field.
At that time the word in the Ready Room was "VOUGHT TAKES YOU THERE, GOODYEAR BRINGS YOU BACK"!!
That turned out to be very prophetic!
At Pensacola we were told that we could expect 1.2 ejections if we continued in jet aircraft.
After 6 months I was way ahead of the game at 2 ejections in 7 months ...
AAR Board determined that first dump occurred because of a shorted
Master Fuel Switch. Later covered switch remedied the problem.
Second required egress was noted by smoke in cockpit, and no Marquardt power.
Next thing I knew I was being accused of enjoying "floating down under the silk".
That is what the Flight Psychologist had announced just before Billy
Phillips and Jack Snyder told him that his services were no longer
needed..
Many were still skeptical until Robair Mohrhardt had smoke in cockpit on final at Cecil..
Turns out that the very fine cement dust accumulated during taxi way
rehab totally screwed up the governors on the early F8 generator.
Early turbine generators turned at 25,000 rpm. When they turned
loose the damage was widespread, cut throttle cables, blown nose gear
tire, Marquardt lines, etc.
Electrical System totally reworked with much more reliable system.
Phillip PJ Smith
964
Sorry it has taken me so long to get this to you. I loved hearing Jim
Lusk's tale of his water landing. As luck would have it I was right
behind the JBD during his launch and had a front row seat for the whole
short flight. Awesome! I'll never forget seeing Grumpy shoot out from
the circle of bubbles as the ship passed abeam of his crash site. I
swear I saw him waving his goose-necked flashlight as he broke the water
surface! Had he not survived we all would have felt he was pretty
stupid to NOT eject and we would probably have lost another pilot 'cause
the riggers had made a bad mistake in the routing of the ejection
cables when they installed the new rocket packs to all of our F-8s. Jim
said they had tested our alternate handles to discover it took 100# of
oomph to move the alternate handle: my rotten memory (and I've told the
story lots of times) is that it took at least 200# to move that baby. So
THANK YOU Grumpy!
Steve Russ
965
July 1969.
We were returning in section to Cherry Point MCAS (KNKT) and trying
to top a line of thunderstorms in western NC. Jim Markel was leading and
I was on his starboard wing. We were at 47,000’ and Jim elected to try
climbing up to 49,000’. At his signal we added power. My trusty F-8
engine became silent and the airplane entered into the high thunderstorm
almost immediately. Deployed the ram air turbine and only got one phase
of dc power back. Entered a violent spin, and soon became more violent
due to the up and down drafts of the thunderstorm. I don’t know how long
I was in the the storm but it felt like an eternity with little time to
think! However I had heard of the above story and did not like the
thought of punching out in the thunderstorm.
As I remember it (of course, stories get better with age) the spin
continued all the way down to 8,000’ when God smiled and allowed me VFR
weather. Recovered from the spin around 4,000’ indicated altitude. All
though the descent I tried to get out of the spin. Did not have an
attitude gyro so turn needle and ball were only available instrument for
situational awareness (had none). If you ever have been in a Crusader
spin you know how violent they were. The plane captains also knew
because if you brought the airplane back your helmet paint was all over
the inside of the canopy. In any event I got a relight at low altitude
and recovered at Cherry Point after informing Center that I would need
vectors and assistance to get to an airport. Jim Markel has his own
story to tell!
s/f, beaver
Bob Beavis
966
A flight of 4 East coast reserve F-8s stopped by for fuel on their way
to Yuma for summer training. I visited with the flight leader, MAJ Ron
Frola (sp?) for a bit before they left.
On the way to Yuma, the flight tried to top a BIG thunder bumper and at
about 470, it became apparent that AB would be required to climb fast
enough to clear the top. When Ron stroked his burner, his J-57 flamed
out. His RAT didn’t work and with the altimeter unwinding, in the
goo and the IAS going past 450, Ron punched out. He finally landed
after an eventful descent at about the 8000’ level not far from
the Zuni Vortac. The AF SAR helo pick him up and as soon as the flight
surgeon gave him clean bill of health, I flew him to Yuma in one of our
TF-9s. Since it was too hot to takeoff from Yuma in the Cougar, I spent
the nite in the BOQ. I don’t recall the circumstances but Ron and
I shared a room. I couldn’t believe it when he took off his
flight suite – his whole body was covered with bruises he got
from the ejection and subsequent ride down through the storm. He was a
hurting puppy as I remember, but not so bad that we didn’t go
have a beer with his squadron mates.
Bob Harrison 967
During 1961 VMF-AW-451 was working up for the first Marine transpac our
over land working area was between LA and the Mexican border. One day
during a ACM mission we saw these contrails and went to investigate
flying at about .95 at 40k we joined on a single clean F4 they were
still in the eval stage and probably out of Point Mugu he noticed us
along his wing waved and you could hear the boom boom of both burners
lighting. The way he pulled away I thought we had stopped, I was very
impressed with the speed but it could not hold its own in a close in
fight. As the song went "two times the engines, three times the speed,
four times the cost and five times the need. You could fly them twice a
week if you tried, bang your burners." Crusaders forever, however prior
to retiring I had the opportunity to fly the F18 now that was an eye
watering experience and definitely the first fighter since the F8. I
called it the three thousand foot aircraft as you could takeoff, land
and split S in three thousand feet. The most surprising thing was when
you were trying to go around the corner, as you know in the F8 just
prior to departure you would get that oscillation, well in the F18 it
was the same except if you pulled harder it would smooth out and you
would start to get condensation from the canards over the canopy. It
was very difficult to pull harder once you started that oscillation. In
defense of the F4 once they got boundary layer control it was better
around the corner and they could slash and dash. Just my opinion.
Al "Animal" Ransom
968
A British author claimed that the Brits had essentially started TOPGUN.
Dick Lord was an excellent pilot. He did teach us Mess Rugby (we
destroyed the Admiral Kidd Club). He did teach us some lessons about
being over-served at dining ins. He did make a significant contribution
to the tactics manual utilized in VF-121 (the F-4 Replacement Air
Group). Dick was transferred from Miramar before TOPGUN was
established. He had no role in the establishment of TOPGUN. A couple of
the British exchange pilots (I believe Peter Jago and Dick Moody) were
allowed to participate in early flights as adversary aircraft during
the early phases the initial classes.
The biggest influences during the formation of TOPGUN were the study of
prior engagements (who won and who lost and why?); the study of John
Boyd and his theory of Energy Maneuverability; the access to industry
and intelligence sources to understand missile performance envelopes
and most of all the Have Donut and Have Drill programs where we
developed the tactics to beat the platforms we were up against in Viet
Nam and the confidence to know that we could do it routinely. This was
all embedded in the syllabus. The key was that TOPGUN was run by J.O.s
and we subjected each other to extreme peer review (the Murder Board).
Those two elements are still cornerstones of TOPGUN today.
The fact that there were no kills for over two years was directly
attributable to the Bombing Halt imposed by President Johnson in
November of 1968. We were prohibited from flying over the North until
President Nixon decided to end the conflict. There was only one
engagement and one kill during that period and that was a TOPGUN
graduate. To say that any of the Brits had any direct involvement is to
rewrite history.
R. Darrell Gary
969
Re John Boyd's Energy Maneuverability, maybe there was some cross over
info there. Bob Thurman, a fresh caught young civilian instructor on
the Navy TPS Staff circa 1951 obtained his Masters Degree on a study of
how to climb and arrive at a given altitude with the best maneuvering
air speed - he used the various TPS Class 7 aircraft and students to do
the tests.
If my memory is correct, Bob went on to be the President of Lockheed's
missile division and then President of Lockheed, California.
Don Shelton
970
All this TopGun info is getting confusing.
I was in VF-126 Feb 1971 to Feb 1973. As I recall VF-121 guys were
coming over and flying our A-4's for an ACM program they were
conducting at the time.
Somewhere around late 1971 or 1972 Keith Huisman, CO of VF-126, ask a
couple of us if we wanted to go over to a new squadron standing up
called NFWS.
VF-126 was by far the best deal going at that time. (O'Gara and Letter
left VF-126 for the F-14 standup, no airplanes, just paperwork. How
dumb was that?)
Ed Tarr was the only guy that wanted to go because he came out of Attack (A-4) and this would be his ticket to stay in Fighters.
As I recall, with Ed Tarr (later killed in a light airplane crash
sometime back) was Pettigrew, Frost, Berky and others I don't recall.
Is this close to what happened?
One thing I do remember for sure, a little later time frame, maybe
around Christmas time, a guy named Fellows (not Monroe's best friend)
was making life much less pleasant around NKX. (ugly, boney ass Turtle)
I also remember Steve Husak, 121 I think, ripping the slats of one of our A-4's.
Huisman wasn't too pissed off!!! I don't know if we ever got the plane
fixed. I think "Ho Chi" Bien might have been in his back seat.
There was a Brit at VF-121 about that time. He rode with me in the back
seat of a TA-4 on an ACM hop. We accidentally ran out of A/S, backed
her down, smoke coming out the intakes, hammerheaded, and as we were
picking up a little A/S I ask him if he still had the bogies in sight.
I remember his response in that Brit accent was "are you shitting me".
Regards, WeaZel
Chuck Lowry
971
When Nardet Miramar was formed, we had no hangar so we when a fleet
Squadron returned to Base we often had to give up our spaces for the
fleet. We were treated rather coolly in the in the O'club and fleet
squadrons often laughed at our F8H as relics. Captain Gus Kinear had a
CO's conference every Monday morning. He held fast at the head of a
long table and the CO's of each unit were seated in order of Seniority
with CDR Roger Box of Top Gun next to Kinear and the OinC of Nardet
(me) at the very far end.
Roger complained to the Base Skipper that he had no F8's to oppose his
graduating class as all of the fleet F8 units were deployed on the
Hancock and Oriskany. Gus said "Don't Schollian have two squadrons of
F8's?" Everyone but me and Gus laughed. Box said "He don't have enough
availability to put up 16 flights a day and surely could not get enough
Reservists in to fly them on a weekday. And if he could, are they
really qualified to ACM?" They laughed again. Kinear asked me if we
could support the graduating class of Top Gun that week and I told he
we could.
So on the appointed day I went to Top Gun ready room for the initial
brief. There on the blackboard, in multicolor chalk, was a sigh that
read: "Today is the Day of the Great Reserve Turkey Shoot."
All of the sorties were outlined with Top Gun pilots names and A/C
numbers in F4H's and the Reserve pilots with their F8's. There were one
on one's and two on one's. Each sortie would check in the ACM range
over San Clemente and would be tracked by multiple radars. When any A/C
closed within lethal range on an opponent the Range would score a kill
and they would circle the winner on the Top Gun board.
At the end of the first day it was 15 kills for the Reserves and one
draw, and they erased the board. The next day ended with Top Gun never
getting a kill.
The following Monday morning when I attended the CO's meeting, my chair
was next to Captain Kinear's and Roger had my old seat at the far end
of the table. He was walking around the back of the room with his hand
covering his ass. When asked what his problem was, he said: "Didn't you
hear, the Reserves carved me a new Ass." And everybody, including me,
laughed.
I pointed out that we had over 15 combat veteran pilots that had flown
both F4's and F8's and two had downed Migs. I believe Guy Freeborn got
one in an F4.
From then on during my tour, the Reserves flew against the Top Gun
grads, they also post-flight debriefed them in their ready room and the
Reserves were treated as equals at Miramar.
Kinear went on to make Admiral and I was able to get a Hangar built at
Miramar dedicated to the Reserve Squadrons. Unfortunately I made
Captain, went to the Pentagon and that was the end of my F8 days.
I am now 81 and my memory might be waning, and some of what I wrote
might not be exact but the essential info is true. It was a great ride,
and I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Jim Schollian 972
"Where are those old guys who are flying those antiques outside?" Bob,
the lead F-4 pilot shouted this insulting remark from the back of the
Ready Room.
These "old guys" were Marine Reserve Pilots from Navy Dallas and the
"antiques" were the F-8 Crusaders that we had flown to Yuma to act as
aggressors against their F-4 Phantoms.
Our F-8 squadron, VMF (AW)-112, based at Navy Dallas, had been invited
to Yuma, AZ to act as MiGs against the Phantoms to sharpen their
air-to-air fighting skills. Since all our pilots had"day jobs" we had
to schedule our Yuma flight around their availability.
The Phantom Squadron needed two Crusaders each day to complete the
exercise. In order to meet their needs we would send two planes and
pilots out for a two-day training period. Those two planes and pilots
would return home as another team replaced them in Yuma. This would
continue until the training was finished.
The Phantom was the latest and greatest fighter, so many folks thought.
It had two big engines; the F-8 had one. The Phantom had missiles; the
F-8 had guns. The Phantom had a big powerful radar that could see half
way across Texas; the F-8 pilots needed no radar. The Phantom required
two crew members; the F-8 only needed one Fighter Pilot.
The Dallas boys had been challenged and so had their F-8 Gunslinger.
Marine Reserve F-8 pilot Major Pete Fromman and I practiced Air Combat
Maneuvers before the fight. We just wanted to sharpen our air-to-air
skills before taking on "big mouth Bob and the boys."
Bob, the Phantom pilot leader, made more brags than anyone else in the
briefing. You could hear him saying, "I will lock you up on radar at 30
miles for a missile kill. You can't get close enough to us to use your
guns or Sidewinders with those old antiques you are flying!" And,
"When it's time to end the fight, I'll call 'Bug Out' and we Phantom
drivers will make a high speed run back to Yuma. I will see you in the
Ready Room since you don't have the speed to keep up with us!" he would
confidently conclude.
We had three engagements that day. The fights started at 40 miles
separation. We turned into each other and the call "Fight's-on!" was
transmitted. We called Tally-Ho almost immediately by seeing their
black smoke. We dumped the nose, increased speed, flew very low under
them, and at the precise moment did a loop ending up at their 6 o'clock
position. They never saw us with their big bad radar sweeping Arizona,
or their 8 eyeballs scanning the
world.
The second engagement was about the same. By the third engagement Pete
and I were bored, so we told them where we were. They finally spotted
us and started to do something other than cruise across the desert. The
old antique Sader was on their tail only after a couple turns. Their
section tactics were terrible.
I called the leader "Bob" and asked, "Is it time to Bug-Out?"
As we were parking on the ramp, I am sure that I saw a quick smile coming from the intake area of my Sader.
We waited for Phantom drivers in the Ready Room. Needless to say,
"NEVER underestimate the capability of your adversary -- especially
when they are flying Crusaders."
Charlie Snell
973
On a North Atlantic cruise aboard the USS Independence (CVA 62) there
were two Fighter Squadrons on board. One Squadron had the new and
mighty Phantoms (VF-41) and we had the F-8E Crusaders (VF-62). Our
mission was to intercept the Russian bombers north of the Arctic
Circle. Of course, the Phantoms were launched first to make the
250-mile intercept of the incoming bomber. A minute or so later two
F-8s were launched. When the Phantoms intercepted the Russian bomber
they were surprised to find the two F-8s, who were launched last,
flying wing on the Russian bomber.
If the Phantom had external tanks we could out run them, out climb them
and out fight them. Without the tanks they were very limited on range!
Ron Knott 974
Dick Lord served in VF121 and departed for UK months before the AULT
Report was published or the TOP GUN effort was conceived. Actually NO
Brits were in our original team. Security Clnc precluded access and
participation in the ongoing War. For several years, a few Brit authors
and probably Lord's publisher have been using the "claim" to sell books
in Europe and S.A..
Other Fine Brits, Chumbley, Colin Griffin and Pete Jago did fly at
VF121 with some A4 adversary later. They never wrote or taught in the
new course..
TOP GUN was originally put together totally by a cadre of Nine (9) USN
Aviators and NFO's, I individually selected them, primarily from the
VF121 Tactics Phase. They were, JC Smith, Mel Holmes, Jim Rulliffson,
John Nash, Steve Smith, Darrell Gary, Jim Laing, our (AI) Wayne
Hilldebrand and myself as Leader.
We operated from the first week on in the procured "Old Trailer"
because of schedule and security. These Nine all had recent combat
experience and some individual unique knowledge and flying skills. They
conceived and wrote the new Academics, its syllabus, the new Flight
Envelope and Syllabus, the improved F4 Tactics and revised missile
envelopes. The Schools nickname "Top Gun", it's Patch design and the
Top Gun Documentation was all written and published in house. There was
no Contractor or Consultant involvement. We did have a couple 4.0
Chiefs and a superb Yeoman.
Mike Guenther, TR Swartz, Ross Anderson, Devil Houston and Dick Schulte
were some very talented participants in the initial Adversary effort.
VX-4 CO Jim Foster, Tooter Teague and Muggs McKeown helped greatly.
Vice Admiral Bush Bringle, Lou Page, ComFit himself and his Staff
protected us and handled the Pentagon (Flack Suppressors).
Lots of claims floating around, but most are individuals trying to
impress good-looking women, get elected somewhere or sell books.
It's all well documented and after 43 years its a little late to get in the game.
Great Standards, Fine Leadership, Superb Aviators at all levels have
kept together and improved "The Best of the Best" for four decades.
They are the "World Standard in Fighter Aviation". Just look at all the
Countries that have participated and formed their own school. My only
regret is that it is not still an independent Command for some "Sierra
Hotel" Young Leader as part of the Navy's Air Wing ONE at Fallon. Maybe
each current Department head could be leader of a Squadron Commanded by
a Superb Junior Officer. The Wing could certainly be Commanded by a
fresh selected, Fleet experienced, Flag Officer.
Dan Pedersen 975
I arrived at TOPGUN to be the boss in May 1971. At the time we were
flying A4's with the big engine that was standard on the newer A4's. I
believe it was the J52 and the rest of the airplane was stripped of all
non-essential weight such as the radar and any associated weapons
delivery avionics. The slats were bolted up and this hotrod version of
the A4 was the best available airplane that AIRPAC could spare to
simulate the MIGS. Obviously it did not have a burner or the great
performance of the MIG-21 but it did provide a significant differential
in performance characteristics which was a major thrust of our TOPGUN
curriculum. Warfare at any level has been the same for the ages =
strength on weakness and deprive the enemy of one's weakness.
Because we were neither a squadron nor a detachment of a squadron we
could not take custody of the aircraft. The arrangement was made for
the TOPGUN pilots to fly these aircraft and they were assigned to and
maintained by the A4 instrument training squadron, VF126. At the same
time BUPERS assigned a cadre of maintenance personnel at VF126 with the
objective of maintaining these extra aircraft and having the manning
available to standup TOPGUN as a squadron. In the beginning of 1972
some of these individuals were starting to be siphoned off to other
assignments and it was apparent that there were people that were trying
to atrophy TOPGUN into oblivion. I went to Captain "Chick" Smith,
ComFairMiramar, (later COMFITAEWWINGPACIFIC) and briefed him on what
was occurring and he got that stopped and directed his staff to setup
TOPGUN as a detachment of the parent squadron, VF121.
It was at that time that I needed to identify a really sharp
Maintenance Officer. Ed Tarr's name came up. He had extensive
experience in the A4 and was a well-respected maintenance guy and a
real leader for the troops. He was a very good stick. If his motivation
was to get into the Fighter community so be it. I just want to make
sure you understand that he was not a second rate guy that 126 dumped
on us.
Number one -- Cdr Keith Husiman would not let that happen. Keith would
love to have had the TOPGUN mission but it was not to be. He was fully
cooperative and supported us in every way possible before and after the
breakaway. In July of 1972 we were established as a full-fledged
squadron. Subsequently, as more demands were put on TOPGUN assets VF126
took on an adversary role for the fleet squadrons.
Roger Box
976
I think that we can agree that the angle deck was a British evolution
and that the Fresnel lens was a Brit invention that was further
developed for extensive use by the U S Navy!
But as to "Top Gun" do not think so...
Frank Ault's study laid it all out and as usual it took a while to
institute. John Boyd's E/M studies were as important as were the
individuals who were instrumental in not only accepting these
approaches to winning air-to-air engagements but proving these
techniques in actual combat situations!
The "Brits" are great aviators and fly in weather that most will not unless under WAR conditions.
They "PARTY" on the same level. I remember seeing three British Naval
Aviators sitting on the landing in Piraeus, Greece. The British
Ambassadors' limousine had delivered them to the landing. They had been
arrested because they would not pay for the $75.00 a bottle for the
hotties that had been sitting on their laps.
I think that I may have been in trouble as well, having missed the last liberty boat back to the FDR the night before..
"Verge" Brown had warned me about that damned OUZO!!!
Phillip Smith
977
I started preflight early January 1961 and remember two lectures which
all the preflight classes at that time were marched over to the Main
Theater in the Pre Flight Building. I can recall the first lecture in
front of the entire group for over an hour was on I believe,
Homosexuality. The second lecture, maybe a month later, again with the
entire pre flight school there was on something to do with dimensions
and time. Colored slide's were projected onto the screen and mention of
the fourth dimension.
My problem is I seem to be the only one out of those I have talked to
that remembers those lecture's. Am I just dreaming this or does anyone
else in our group remember the lectures and or their content??
Larie Clark 978
I started preflight October 1963 and remember the homosexuality lecture
- the lecturer started by saying he called it his "three dollar bill"
lecture.
I don't remember a lecture about the 4th dimension, although I believe
I experienced the fourth dimension at the ACRAC a few times.
John Doherty
979
Steve Russ mentioned that in '68 a Fighter Weapons School was
established at VF-124. I contend that this was the first Navy Fighter
Weapons School at Miramar. The December issue of "Crusader Fighter
Report" says:
"College" starts "Postgrad Course".
"A new "post-graduate course" in F-8 weapons training has been instituted at "Crusader College," Miramar, California.
Under the direction of Commander Harry J Post, commanding officer of
VF-124, the intensive four-week refresher course is being conducted by
LCDR John Hellman and a staff of nine instructors, most of them
veterans of two combat deployments during the war in Vietnam.
The course incorporates 75 hours of ground training and 25 hours of
flight training and includes combat maneuvering,air-to-air tactics, use
of the Sidewinder missile, air-to-ground delivery capabilities of the
F-8, radar and ECM.
Members of the first class, representing squadrons back at home base at
NAS Miramar after combat deployment, are shown in photo with CDR Post:
Lt(jg) Steve Russ, VF-53; Lt(jg) Bob Walters, VF-162; Lt(jg) John
Laughter, VF-111; Lt John Quisenberry, VF-51; Lt Bill Switzer, VF-191,
and Lt Skip Giles, VF-194.
Postgraduate students return to their squadrons as weapons training
officers, equipped with up-to-the-minute information and instruction
covering the most recent developments in maximum effective use of the
Crusader weapons system."
Our respective squadrons provided an F-8 and the maintenance support.
Don't know how long the school continued after '68. It was an excellent
program and we brought a lot of useful information back to the
squadrons. e.g. "heart of the envelope" Sidewinder tactics and good
estimates of range through the gunsight.
So, it was a good thing that the F-4 community followed through on our
idea and came up with a catchy name and a movie. But we started it.
Well, maybe the Air Force TFWC at Nellis was a little ahead of us.
I think Bob Walters had the highest overall grades. Makes him the first "Top Gun".
John Laughter 980
I was one of the Senior Instructors in Fighter Tactics Phase in VF-121 when the Brits arrived at NKX.
I arrived at VF-121 via Naval Missile Test Center then VFAW3 and a couple of Vietnam combat tours with VF-151
As Dan Pedersen related the Brits departed NKX prior to NFWS formation.
The Royal Navy was in the process of procuring the F4 and sent the
first group of Pilots to VF-121 for transition and to develop a flight
syllabus for the F4
LT Dick Lord as a great stick. One of the best during my duty tour. He
and the other Royal Navy Pilots had great command of the F4.
At the end of each formal training period we naturally saved enough
fuel for a 5 to 10 minute non-syllabus fighter tactics training.
My summation is Dick Lord was never a part of, participated in, had any input, or even knew about NFWS while on duty at VF-121.
As a side note: Dan Pedersen and I were house mates when we were with VFAW3 from 1958 through 1961
We spent many a happy hour at the I – Bar on Friday nights
developing fighter tactics. Later it was off to the Mexican Village in
Coronado for a little social activity. Which at that time was a Target
Rich environment?
Before I close I'll put in a plug about VFAW3: The Squadron won every
formal exercise and competition between squadrons in the Navy and Air
Force. They excelled at Top Gun Competition at Yuma and additionally
won the Aviation Safety Award each year. For three consecutive years
VFAW3 was honored by the Navy and Air Force as the best Fighter
Squadron in the World.
Jack Bewley 981
I was glad to see Tooter Teague finally get some credit in #3014. I
wish he was still with us for comment. I know he was pushing for the
"Crusader College" concept at VF 124 in January 1965 when I reported
for initial F-8 training. I was told then that I was to be 'tutored' by
Tooter for special weapons training and carry the techniques back to my
squadron. Sort of sounds like the 'grass roots' of what John Laughter
told us about.
Wayne Skaggs
982
VF-124 conducted trials and tests for 'Top Gun' in 1968 and 1969. I was
instructing (LSO and Tactics) during that time and remember flying
against the F-5 and Navy types to be the equivalent of the MIG-21. The
F-5 was perhaps the best aircraft we flew against as it did not smoke
and had a symmetrical outline from above or below. Apparently we could
not get the aircraft in sufficient numbers, or because it was an Air
Force production. I'll bet there ore others who began the 'Top Gun'
school long before the multi-engined passenger aircraft we used to eat
every day and twice on Sundays.
George Hise 983
It's nice that someone remembers the beginning of the Crusader College.
John Laughter is correct; I attended the initial class back when I was
a j.o. in VF-162. A number of years later I had an opportunity to
attend NFWS flying the F-14, which was pretty new to the Navy at that
time. Both were excellent experiences, as any attendee will tell you.
The quality of both schools was superb and the concept was nearly
identical, although the actual syllabus of each school was slightly
different. As I remember it, Crusader College was the more interesting
of the two schools, at least to me. For one thing, Crusader College was
a little more technically oriented and had more input from outside the
world of Miramar and Fighter Town USA. That appealed to me and I
especially enjoyed the lessons in advanced aerodynamics and the various
aspects of aircraft performance which were presented in more
comprehensive terms first and then, as the course went on, we learned
how those factors applied to our F-8 aircraft and the threats we might
face. As I remember it, NFWS seemed to be less broad in scope,
especially in the area of aerodynamics, and a little more oriented
toward the specific maneuvers believed to be most effective against the
existing threat. In any case, both were outstanding schools and I'm
honored to have the opportunity to have attended both of them.
At the initial Crusader College the Navy instructors were Bruce
Johnson, Richard Mudgett, Dave Morris, Larry Miller, Ron Ball, Boyd
Repsher, Bob Geeding, and Don Agatep. John Hellman was the O-in-C. We
also had several excellent guest speakers including one terrific
engineer from Raytheon who taught us everything there was to know about
the Sidewinder as well as some interesting details about the Russian
Atoll.
I remember several events from Crusader College which left a lingering
impression on me. During aero class, the instructor asked us "What
makes an airplane fly?" Each student gave his answer in turn and
I recall that there was plenty of chatter about lift vs. weight, thrust
vs. drag, Bernoulli's principle, Newton's laws, etc. When we were
finished, the instructor said to us, "What makes airplanes fly is
POWER!" At that moment he threw a piece of chalk across the room
as hard as he could and it shattered against the wall. Then he went on
to explain exactly why that piece of chalk flew so dramatically and why
power is so important to fighter aircraft. It must have been a good
teaching technique because I remember that moment to this day.
At the end of the course, all six students went out on a Sidewinder
missile shoot against maneuvering Firebee drones launched from Pt.
Mugu. What made this exercise special is that somebody (perhaps John
Hellman) arranged for us to shoot the Aim 9 Delta. At that time Deltas
were in short supply and deployed squadrons couldn't get as many as
they wanted. I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if we
were the first, or at least some of the first, fleet pilots allowed to
practice with the Delta. At that time, the typical fleet missile
exercise involved firing the older Aim 9 Bravo, usually against
non-maneuvering targets which were sometimes simply towed flares. Those
events were sort of like kissing your sister. Getting a chance to fire
the Aim 9-D was a big deal for us.
I believe they launched three drones for the six pilots in the class. I
shot first. I deliberately pickled the missile at a rather high angle
off; a shot I would never have taken with the Aim 9-B. The shot was a
kill and I assumed the missile had accidentally made a direct hit on
the drone. Realizing there would probably not be a chance for a second
attempt; my wingman (John Laughter I believe) fired on the flaming
wreckage and also scored a hit. As I recall, the remaining drones met a
similar fate and I can tell you the guys at Pt. Mugu were none too
happy about it; three drones and three splashes if memory serves.
Later on, I heard through the grapevine that there were no spotting
charges available for the Aim 9-Delta. In other words, we were shooting
with live warheads! Somebody had to know about all this, but I can
guarantee that the target guys up at Pt. Mugu were NOT in on this
particular secret ahead of time. If anybody was forced to do a rug
dance for destroying a bunch of expensive drones, I never heard about
it.
Some years later as a civilian working for Grumman, I attended the (by
then) fully mature NFWS. It too was a fantastic school with a little
less broad based technical information and more emphasis on tactics
which were constantly being studied, reviewed, and fine-tuned by some
pretty sharp guys. I remember thrashing around in a (very) low speed
scissors against a Top Gun instructor in his F-5. My adversary that day
was an ex-F-8 driver named Rich (Turtle) Redditt. My Tomcat was
shuddering and shaking like crazy in zone five burner while I was
giving it all the rudder it could stand. I remember the aft stick force
required to sustain the desired AOA was so high my arm muscles were
soon shaking. I was compelled to use both hands on the stick.
Maintaining precise control wasn't easy since the forces in the roll
axis remained rather light. The Navy guy who wrote the aircraft
specifications or the Grumman designer who tailored the stick forces
for the Tomcat was certainly not a fighter pilot. Or perhaps he
(mistakenly) thought we spent time at the gym in those days.
Gobs of normal rudder input along with feeding in a little opposite
lateral control against the desired direction of roll would
dramatically increase the roll rate in a very high AOA situation and I
had worked hard to integrate this technique into my limited bag of
tricks. In other words, the Tomcat exhibited reversed roll response at
very high AOA flight. This way of flying certainly wasn't yet automatic
for me with my rather limited F-14 seat time. I had to keep talking to
myself "RIGHT stick rolls left and LEFT stick rolls right". I was
trying not to say this little ditty out loud for fear of frightening
the WSO.
My WSO, another Top Gun instructor, didn't know me from Adam and I'm
pretty sure he thought I was going to kill him. I imagine Turtle
worried about me killing all of us because we got pretty close together
a couple of times, especially as we repeatedly transitioned from a flat
scissors to a rolling scissors and back again. Of course, we knew this
sort of flying had little or no real tactical training value, but
nobody (except perhaps the WSO) wanted to knock it off. Eventually the
F-5 ran out of energy shortly before I ran out of nerve and Rich flew
out in front of me. My "GUNS" call may not have been completely
legitimate, but that never stopped an F-8 driver before.
Up until then the Top Gun F-5 Instructors claimed to have a perfect
record against the F-14 in a slow speed scissors fight. In the debrief
Turtle claimed (true or not) that he was impressed. It was a nice
moment for me.
My hat is off to all the men who worked so hard to develop the Crusader
College and the NFWS. I knew some of them personally, but none of them
were Brits.
Bob Walters
984
In the early 1970's while attached to COMFAIRMIRAMAR under the command
of Commodore Chuck Smith and directly under the operations officer Capt
Pulas (sp) myself and another officer (transit) (remember the face but
not the name) was assigned the task of conducting a staff study on the
feasibility of the establishment of a Navy Fighter Weapons School
(NFWS)). We ere briefed on the Ault report and directed to use that
report as a guide line and a basic premise. We were further instructed
to determine that, if the school or unit was to be established, should
it be:
1 An extension of the ACM training department in VF-121,
2. Set-up as a department under the instrument training squadron VA-126,
3. Established as a completely new unit unto it own or
4. Other.
For several reasons we came to the conclusion that the NFWS should be
formed as an independent unit. The report was presented to Capt. Pulas
and then to Commodore Smith. Both men bought the conclusions and
arranged for a presentation to AirPac. AirPac had some good news and
some bad. The good news was that it agreed with the study and the need
for a NFWS, but, the bad news was, there was no manpower available. If
COMFIRMIRAMAR wanted the school they would have to man the unit from
existing manpower assets at Miramar.
After it was determined how many and of what rates/rating would be
required to support the new unit and its aircraft a meeting was called
that included all targeted squadron CO's under COMFAIRMIRAMAR. The
meeting was held at COMFAIRMIRAMAR'S conference room. After a brief
introduction from Capt. Pulas, I was left with the CO's to work out the
manning requirement. At this time it was expected that I would list out
the required rate and rating and the CO's would check their manning
rosters/level (most units were under manned at the time) and with great
sacrifice, volunteer the required man. Not so fast. I was quickly
informed by the skipper of VF-121 that while he agreed with the need
for ACM training he was not happy that it would not be under VF-121 and
that I would get nothing from his squadron. With that, none of the
other skippers wanted to cooperate. That was the wrong stance. Capt
Palus was a big man with a commanding voice and when he was pissed he
seemed twice as big. He came back into the conference room and made it
clear that cooperation was no longer necessary. Each squadron would
make their personnel records available to me and I would make the
choice as to who they would "volunteer". As I went to each squadron
cooperation was 100% I tried to work with the squadrons to
compromise an take maybe the second best man and not the best in every
case. Considering the alternative I believe most were satisfied.
I had a lot of pilots trying to get me to put their name on the list
for officer selection. I tried to tell them that I had no input on that
list but I do not think they believed me. The only officer I know for
sure that was going to be on the roster was Roger Box.
Through this entire exercise I never had any contact with or input from any British pilot
Andre Coltrin
985
My story about MGEN Carl is no where as dramatic as some of those
in your memorial web sire. But I had a modest experience with then LCOL
Marion Carl in early 1953. I was a tower operator at MCAS Quantico, and
one dark, windy and rainy night, field way below minimums and closed, I
got a call from an inbound SNB from PAX RIVER that wanted to land. I
told him he couldn’t land, and he told he was our new field ops
officer, and he was opening the field and was going to land. Being a
lowly SGT, with all the officers gone home, I dutyfully said Aye
Aye, Sir, and opened the field. The SNB emerged from the fog
about 200ft right of the runway, about 300 ft sort of the runway, and
about 200ft altitude. The A/C did a wing-racking twist, line up, and
slid in like he did this all day. Col Carl was just from his teat
pilot adventures at PAX RIVER, and his back was still in a brace. That
was my introduction to the Marion Carl legend.
During his time at Quantico, I had the good fortune to fly back seat
with him in what came to be his personal F7F,and a TV 2, and saw him
fly an incredible variety of A/C on and off our 4200ft runway. He was
an awesome pilot. Control tower operators can tell.
Tom Balfour
986
IRT Bob Walters' summary of F-14 vs F-5 (flown by Turtle Redditt)
I'll suggest that the F-5 by no means had a perfect kill history vs the
Tomcat. This comes from personal experience. When I was an instructor
at TOPGUN in the mid seventies there came to pass a dual between Hoser
Satrapa and me over the SOCAL desert. I had a fair amount of time in
the F-5 and considered myself as capable as any of us in the bird. I
thought I had some pretty slick moves. Hoser (flying the Turkey ... an
A-model, by the way) was a memmber of the AIMEVAL/ACEVAL cadre up at
Nellis and somehow we had arranged for a 1 v 1 comparison between the
two aircraft. Long story short, Hoser knocked my appendage in the dirt
in EVERY engagement, starting with the standard combat spread ... turn
in ... fight's on, and the last engagement started with me directly
behind Hoser at 817 feet. When that one started I watched in eye
watering awe as this gigantic piece of aluminum in front of me went
nose up into a planform while rudder rolling to a controlled departure
close over top of me and ending up in guns tracking about 500 feet
behind me. In mortal disbelief I was staring back over my shoulder at
two monstrous intakes camped out at my six.
In my own(albeit weak) defense I will hasten to add that Hoser was in a
league by himself (with the possible exception of Snort Snodgrass) when
it came to PFM maneuvers with an airplane. I saw him do similar stuff
in the F-8. He was a gifted fighter pilot to say the least.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Alex Rucker
987
I was just out of VF-174 in August of 1962, and joined VF-62 at that time.
After intercepting two MIG-17's on alert duty in Key West, we rotated
back to Cecil. A few days later it was announced (top secret) that we
would be part of a coordinated mass air strike to take out as many
missiles as possible. 1500 aircraft from Navy, Marine and air force
squadrons would take part. We were instructed to fly to the Yucatan
after the strike because it was believed that Jacksonville would be a
prime target of any missiles that would be launched from Cuba. After
all, Jacksonville had three large Naval facilities.
We were at the takeoff end of 9L having the pins pulled from the Zuni
missiles we carried along with full high explosive and tracer 20mm.
Just as we were about to take the runway, the tower called and told us the mission had be scrubbed and to return to the blocks.
I have always believed that had we flown that mission, it would have
triggered a nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the USA. If that
had happened the world would have been changed forever.
Jim Brady
988
I do not know the wire distances on Essex class, or Midway's first
angled deck. However, the distance between the #1 & #2 wire when
Midway was decommissioned is 40 feet. Therefore, from #1 wire to #3 is
80 feet. Further, when the 2nd angled deck was constructed, the angle
was 13 instead of 9 degrees. If one looks closely at the deck, the
barricade holes are considerably aft of the current installation. Point
being, optimum hook to ramp clearance in the current configuration is
12 feet, while it is obvious that on the first angled deck, hook to
ramp clearance was somewhat less, supposedly 10 feet. Another point is
that Midway class flight decks are 50 feet off the water, while Essex
class boats were 65 feet, and my understanding is that Nimitz class
boats are 75 feet off the water. As one can surmise, when descending to
minimums for a landing current aircraft are higher above the water.
Further it is my understanding that hook to ramp on a Nimitz class is
16 feet. It becomes apparent why carrier aviation has become safer,
when one considers computer design of aircraft and ships, procedural
improvements, and the above statistics.
V/R, Roger D. Crim
989
Being a FOD Walk-Down Triple Centurion on USS Midway and the same on
USS Kitty Hawk when I was Gun Boss... Midway's three cross deck
pendants (CDP) were spaced 38 ft apart. On Kitty Hawk the spacing
between her four CDPs was roughly 42 ft or 126 ft from the 1-Wire to
4-Wire and 175 ft from the ramp to the 1-Wire. I found a NAVAIR Pub
that has spacing between CDPs on the Nimitz Class CVN's at around 50
ft, (15) meters.
The 27C Essex Class CVAs like USS Hancock were a bit more snug in CDP
spacing... As I recall on USS Hancock, it was roughly 38 ft between
each of the four CDPs, 114 ft from 1-Wire to 4-Wire, and 95 ft from the
ramp to 1-Wire.
I also recall it was an automatic "No-Grade" for a kitty-car, hook skip
bolter in the F-8 if you landed early and rolled over all four wires
... Or if the LSO thought you were trolling down the deck with a higher
than normal AOA trying to snag a wire because of weak hook snubber
pressure...
That's when they usually broke out the toilette paper rolls to place
under the CDPs to augment the leaf springs and hold the CDPs a bit
higher ... It's funny ... but I don't recall our engine FOD rate being
all that high on USS Hancock ... even when sheets of flight deck
non-skid peeled off the wooden deck and got more flight time than most
of us ... and we were pulling down 60 to 70 hours flight time each line
period...
Pete "Batch" Batcheller
990
The 38' of CDP spacing sounds about right for the Shangri La. Might
have been a tad shorter. Hook to ramp clearance on a OK 3 was 9.5 ft. I
remember my landing on the Enterprise when it was in shake down south
of Guantanamo bay. I could not believe how far down the deck the 3 wire
was and how high I was over the ramp compared to the Shang and taxied
to the 1 wire. That hook to ramp clearance would have been very nice,
especially at night. When we were operating on a Black ass night on the
Shang and we had any deck pitch at all, it could get very interesting.
Jim Brady
991
Another factor in the "hook to ramp" of the various carriers was the
"approach angle" cranked into the lens. For the 27-C carriers it
required 3 degrees to get the necessary 12 feet hook to ramp for the 3
wire. The bigger boats could dial in a more shallow glide path and
maintain "desired" hook to ramp. Anyone know what the book glide path
for the Nimitz boats?
992
In response to Jim Alderink and the 3 degree glide slope: he is right
on. I recently looked into the NATOPS manual that I have compliments of
the USN. I think it stated that the lens was set to 3.25 degrees to
give a net 3 degrees when taking into consideration the ship's movement.
Of course, I have CRS and one must take that into consideration....
Ron Lambe 993
The number I remember for the O boat 1972-74 was 10.4' hook to ramp.
don't know about distance between wires. I know I waved some guys who
subscribed to the theory: "Things that are worthless: wires behind my
hook." In other words they took shots at ALL FOUR.
Track/Bubba Meyers
994
Sometime in the late spring of 1968 while in the RAG I was on a 4-plane
sidewinder shoot with an IP and three shooters. One of the other FRPs
was Rome Ohnemus. I had gone through flight training with Rome and can
tell you he had a tough time in advanced instrument training but got
through after a couple of downs and reflies.
I remember watching the sidewinder come off the rail on Rome's
airplane. It went a few hundred feet and nosed over, lost in the mists
below.
In any event we all RTB'd to NKX which was IFR. Rome wasn't at the line
shack when we were signing in, and by the time we got to the Ready Room
we learned he had flown into a mountain north of the field while in the
GCA pattern. (At the time someone said it was Miramar Mountain, but I
don't think there's a mountain with that name. Black Mountain maybe?)
A footnote: that missile of Rome's found a fishing boat that had
slipped into the area. Nice warm engine signature against the cold
Pacific. It was reported that the sidewinder went through a few decks,
breaking a deck-hand's arm on the way.
Bull Durham
995
My recall is that we used 4.0 deg on the 27C boats, same for mirror or
lens. Hook to ramp was about 8.5 ft. for the F-8 and higher for all
other planes. Whale was somewhat close but if you kept an eye on his
port wing light and didn't let it drift right of your eyeball you were
OK otherwise edge toward the net. Bigger boats, Connie or Kitty Hawk,
used a lens set to 3.5 deg. Approach always seemed a bit flat. Hook to
ramp was way up there, probably hard to measure. In an F-4 it was
always cake while the F-8 was always a challenge.
Bob Heisner
996
The Midway glide slope was set at 3.5 or 3.25 for F8 recoveries to
snatch the #3 wire, which gave you a ten foot hook to ramp clearance on
a perfect pass. The only 4 degree glide slope I ever used was for the
A3D while a deck was a little unsteady which was most of the time.
The last of the paddle wavers, Ace Jewell. 997
The 27C's (Shang for me) used a 4 degree slope to get the hook to ramp
clearance up to (thought it was 9.8' on centerline, on speed, headed
for a target 3 wire). The big boats, including Coral Sea and Midway
used a 3.5 degree slope and still had good hook to ramp while bringing
the power up a bit for safety. When the wind high the big boats went to
a 4 degree slope because the power was up and the higher slope got you
above the burble a bit. No, I was not an LSO but I studied it a lot and
was later an Air Boss.
Will Gray 998
With a dose of CRS thrown in the ORISKANY was set at 4 degrees and
netted 3.5 degrees for a glide slope. The F-8 and the WHALE had the 10
ft H/R clearance. F-8 was about 10.5 ft and the WHALE was "legal" at 10
ft. 10 ft was the AIRPAC minat the time, I think !?!?!?!?
Bill Asbell 999
The 27C boats used a 4.0 degree basic angle for glide slope. This
yielded a 10.8 ft. hook to ramp clearance for all aircraft. The larger
boats, CV 63 and subsequent, used a 3.5 degree basic angle that yielded
a 14.5 ft. hook to ramp for all aircraft types. Believe the Forrestal
class used a 3.5 degree glide slope with about a 12 foot hook to ramp
clearance. Not sure about the Midway class. Hook to eye values for the
different aircraft were adjusted for by changing lens roll angle. The
effective glide slope is a factor of wind over the deck. For example,
on the 27C, with zero wind over the deck, the effective glide slope was
4 degrees, while with 25 knots of wind over the deck, the effective
glide slope was 3.75 degrees. With high wind over deck, say 40 knots or
more, I used 4.0 degrees on the larger boats to yield an effective
glide slope similar to that experienced with 25 to 30 knots of wind.
Jim Matheny 1000
Jim Alderink was a student of mine in VF-124, Bob Heisner was a
re-tread student, Ace Jewell was my LSO when I went thru 124 in '62,
Bud Collicott and I were in the same class with John Bartocci being
waved by Ace. Bug Roach was my student in 124 ... he later waved me on
my last tour as OINC of DET-5 Crusaders, '74 My son later was CAG-LSO
for Rabbit on Ranger, who also hired Bug as the Senior LSO, because he
finally made Commander! Joe Phaneuf and I were Instructors in 124, it
is true 'Brillo' does fit! Snake Morris and I went to College together
at the U of Utah. And Chuck the 'Weazel' was a student along with Bug.
I guess what I am saying, we all owe one hell-uv-a lot to the
dedication of LSO's in our lives. My hat is off to you all. Saved my
ass more than once.
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